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Why did the Germans forbid the possession of pet pigeons in Rostov-on-Don in 1941?



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InWhere can I find documents from the Nuremberg trials about war crimes of the Wehrmacht in the Soviet Union?Ethnic Germans in Russian service in PolandWho was in charge of the Barysaw massacre (20 October 1941)?Why were the Germans and Russians so fixated on an unlikely “separate peace” in 1945?Why did the Germans not encircle and besiege Stalingrad?Why couldn't Germans and Finns capture Leningrad?Why did Japan fail to interfere with shipping from America to Vladivostok from 1941-1945?Why was Stalin surprised by the German attack in June 1941?Why did the Germans spare Allied troops trapped at Dunkirk?Why didn't Japanese attack Soviet Union simultaneously as the Germans?Did a German plane really land in Moscow in 1941 May?










21















Photograph made by Max Alpert shows a dead boy holding a pigeon. It seems that the child has been tortured before he was killed.



Source: Federal Archive Agency of Russia, Russian state archive of photographic and movie documents, item nr. 0-259138 (Российский государственный архив кинофотодокументов, aрхивный номер: 0-259138)



According to Russian Wikipedia the name of this boy was Victor Ivanovich Cherevichkin and the Germans killed him because he did not kill his pigeons. After they occupied Rostov-on-Don (the hometown of this boy), the issued an order that made illegal to own pet pigeons.



The boy hid his pigeons at home and was killed for that by the Germans.



Why did the Germans not allow people to own pigeons? What made the possession of pigeons so dangerous that it justified the killing of a child?



Update 1 (2019-04-07 00:09 CET): Here is the Original text from Russian Wikipedia article:




22 ноября 1941 года был издан приказ об уничтожении голубей в районах города Ростова. Вопреки предписанию немецкого командования об уничтожении принадлежащих местному населению домашних голубей, подросток в течение недели скрывал имевшихся у него птиц.



28 ноября 1941 года немцы застали Виктора Черевичкина выпускающим нескольких голубей у здания, в котором размещался штаб, и обнаружили в сарае во дворе его дома голубятню.











share|improve this question



















  • 21





    I do not know the specifics about the German orders, but homing pigeons have been extensively used in warfare to carry messages (I believe there is even a Disney movie about a homing pigeon).

    – SJuan76
    Apr 6 at 22:15







  • 24





    If there is an order stating that you cannot have pigeons, then the "crime" is just having the pigeons, even if you do not use them to any military activity. And we all know that the Nazi repression at the Eastern Front was specially brutal.

    – SJuan76
    Apr 6 at 22:24







  • 12





    "What made the possession of pigeons so dangerous that it justified the killing of a child?" The Nazis were not known for their just treatment of individuals...

    – jpmc26
    2 days ago







  • 4





    @jpmc26 : Neither were the Soviets. So we can't rule out either that the Nazis did the killing, nor that the Soviets did it and used it for propaganda.

    – vsz
    2 days ago






  • 5





    @vsz Do you have any evidence that it were the Soviets who did that?

    – Franz Drollig
    2 days ago















21















Photograph made by Max Alpert shows a dead boy holding a pigeon. It seems that the child has been tortured before he was killed.



Source: Federal Archive Agency of Russia, Russian state archive of photographic and movie documents, item nr. 0-259138 (Российский государственный архив кинофотодокументов, aрхивный номер: 0-259138)



According to Russian Wikipedia the name of this boy was Victor Ivanovich Cherevichkin and the Germans killed him because he did not kill his pigeons. After they occupied Rostov-on-Don (the hometown of this boy), the issued an order that made illegal to own pet pigeons.



The boy hid his pigeons at home and was killed for that by the Germans.



Why did the Germans not allow people to own pigeons? What made the possession of pigeons so dangerous that it justified the killing of a child?



Update 1 (2019-04-07 00:09 CET): Here is the Original text from Russian Wikipedia article:




22 ноября 1941 года был издан приказ об уничтожении голубей в районах города Ростова. Вопреки предписанию немецкого командования об уничтожении принадлежащих местному населению домашних голубей, подросток в течение недели скрывал имевшихся у него птиц.



28 ноября 1941 года немцы застали Виктора Черевичкина выпускающим нескольких голубей у здания, в котором размещался штаб, и обнаружили в сарае во дворе его дома голубятню.











share|improve this question



















  • 21





    I do not know the specifics about the German orders, but homing pigeons have been extensively used in warfare to carry messages (I believe there is even a Disney movie about a homing pigeon).

    – SJuan76
    Apr 6 at 22:15







  • 24





    If there is an order stating that you cannot have pigeons, then the "crime" is just having the pigeons, even if you do not use them to any military activity. And we all know that the Nazi repression at the Eastern Front was specially brutal.

    – SJuan76
    Apr 6 at 22:24







  • 12





    "What made the possession of pigeons so dangerous that it justified the killing of a child?" The Nazis were not known for their just treatment of individuals...

    – jpmc26
    2 days ago







  • 4





    @jpmc26 : Neither were the Soviets. So we can't rule out either that the Nazis did the killing, nor that the Soviets did it and used it for propaganda.

    – vsz
    2 days ago






  • 5





    @vsz Do you have any evidence that it were the Soviets who did that?

    – Franz Drollig
    2 days ago













21












21








21


4






Photograph made by Max Alpert shows a dead boy holding a pigeon. It seems that the child has been tortured before he was killed.



Source: Federal Archive Agency of Russia, Russian state archive of photographic and movie documents, item nr. 0-259138 (Российский государственный архив кинофотодокументов, aрхивный номер: 0-259138)



According to Russian Wikipedia the name of this boy was Victor Ivanovich Cherevichkin and the Germans killed him because he did not kill his pigeons. After they occupied Rostov-on-Don (the hometown of this boy), the issued an order that made illegal to own pet pigeons.



The boy hid his pigeons at home and was killed for that by the Germans.



Why did the Germans not allow people to own pigeons? What made the possession of pigeons so dangerous that it justified the killing of a child?



Update 1 (2019-04-07 00:09 CET): Here is the Original text from Russian Wikipedia article:




22 ноября 1941 года был издан приказ об уничтожении голубей в районах города Ростова. Вопреки предписанию немецкого командования об уничтожении принадлежащих местному населению домашних голубей, подросток в течение недели скрывал имевшихся у него птиц.



28 ноября 1941 года немцы застали Виктора Черевичкина выпускающим нескольких голубей у здания, в котором размещался штаб, и обнаружили в сарае во дворе его дома голубятню.











share|improve this question
















Photograph made by Max Alpert shows a dead boy holding a pigeon. It seems that the child has been tortured before he was killed.



Source: Federal Archive Agency of Russia, Russian state archive of photographic and movie documents, item nr. 0-259138 (Российский государственный архив кинофотодокументов, aрхивный номер: 0-259138)



According to Russian Wikipedia the name of this boy was Victor Ivanovich Cherevichkin and the Germans killed him because he did not kill his pigeons. After they occupied Rostov-on-Don (the hometown of this boy), the issued an order that made illegal to own pet pigeons.



The boy hid his pigeons at home and was killed for that by the Germans.



Why did the Germans not allow people to own pigeons? What made the possession of pigeons so dangerous that it justified the killing of a child?



Update 1 (2019-04-07 00:09 CET): Here is the Original text from Russian Wikipedia article:




22 ноября 1941 года был издан приказ об уничтожении голубей в районах города Ростова. Вопреки предписанию немецкого командования об уничтожении принадлежащих местному населению домашних голубей, подросток в течение недели скрывал имевшихся у него птиц.



28 ноября 1941 года немцы застали Виктора Черевичкина выпускающим нескольких голубей у здания, в котором размещался штаб, и обнаружили в сарае во дворе его дома голубятню.








world-war-two soviet-union russia






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 2 days ago









Riker

1389




1389










asked Apr 6 at 22:05









Franz DrolligFranz Drollig

1,5821936




1,5821936







  • 21





    I do not know the specifics about the German orders, but homing pigeons have been extensively used in warfare to carry messages (I believe there is even a Disney movie about a homing pigeon).

    – SJuan76
    Apr 6 at 22:15







  • 24





    If there is an order stating that you cannot have pigeons, then the "crime" is just having the pigeons, even if you do not use them to any military activity. And we all know that the Nazi repression at the Eastern Front was specially brutal.

    – SJuan76
    Apr 6 at 22:24







  • 12





    "What made the possession of pigeons so dangerous that it justified the killing of a child?" The Nazis were not known for their just treatment of individuals...

    – jpmc26
    2 days ago







  • 4





    @jpmc26 : Neither were the Soviets. So we can't rule out either that the Nazis did the killing, nor that the Soviets did it and used it for propaganda.

    – vsz
    2 days ago






  • 5





    @vsz Do you have any evidence that it were the Soviets who did that?

    – Franz Drollig
    2 days ago












  • 21





    I do not know the specifics about the German orders, but homing pigeons have been extensively used in warfare to carry messages (I believe there is even a Disney movie about a homing pigeon).

    – SJuan76
    Apr 6 at 22:15







  • 24





    If there is an order stating that you cannot have pigeons, then the "crime" is just having the pigeons, even if you do not use them to any military activity. And we all know that the Nazi repression at the Eastern Front was specially brutal.

    – SJuan76
    Apr 6 at 22:24







  • 12





    "What made the possession of pigeons so dangerous that it justified the killing of a child?" The Nazis were not known for their just treatment of individuals...

    – jpmc26
    2 days ago







  • 4





    @jpmc26 : Neither were the Soviets. So we can't rule out either that the Nazis did the killing, nor that the Soviets did it and used it for propaganda.

    – vsz
    2 days ago






  • 5





    @vsz Do you have any evidence that it were the Soviets who did that?

    – Franz Drollig
    2 days ago







21




21





I do not know the specifics about the German orders, but homing pigeons have been extensively used in warfare to carry messages (I believe there is even a Disney movie about a homing pigeon).

– SJuan76
Apr 6 at 22:15






I do not know the specifics about the German orders, but homing pigeons have been extensively used in warfare to carry messages (I believe there is even a Disney movie about a homing pigeon).

– SJuan76
Apr 6 at 22:15





24




24





If there is an order stating that you cannot have pigeons, then the "crime" is just having the pigeons, even if you do not use them to any military activity. And we all know that the Nazi repression at the Eastern Front was specially brutal.

– SJuan76
Apr 6 at 22:24






If there is an order stating that you cannot have pigeons, then the "crime" is just having the pigeons, even if you do not use them to any military activity. And we all know that the Nazi repression at the Eastern Front was specially brutal.

– SJuan76
Apr 6 at 22:24





12




12





"What made the possession of pigeons so dangerous that it justified the killing of a child?" The Nazis were not known for their just treatment of individuals...

– jpmc26
2 days ago






"What made the possession of pigeons so dangerous that it justified the killing of a child?" The Nazis were not known for their just treatment of individuals...

– jpmc26
2 days ago





4




4





@jpmc26 : Neither were the Soviets. So we can't rule out either that the Nazis did the killing, nor that the Soviets did it and used it for propaganda.

– vsz
2 days ago





@jpmc26 : Neither were the Soviets. So we can't rule out either that the Nazis did the killing, nor that the Soviets did it and used it for propaganda.

– vsz
2 days ago




5




5





@vsz Do you have any evidence that it were the Soviets who did that?

– Franz Drollig
2 days ago





@vsz Do you have any evidence that it were the Soviets who did that?

– Franz Drollig
2 days ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















51














The Germans were concerned that carrier pigeons would be used to communicate with Soviet forces. Carrier pigeons were used extensively during both World Wars.




From the Rostov-on-Don tourism website:




Черевичкин Виктор Иванович (1925–1941) – ростовский пионер-герой.
Когда немцы в 1941 году взяли Ростов-на-Дону, они приказали городским владельцам голубятен уничтожить всех своих птиц. Гитлеровцы опасались, что с помощью почтовых голубей ростовчане будут передавать советским войскам разведывательную информацию.
Но Витя не подчинился приказу и тайно продолжал держать голубей, с их помощью наладив связь с партизанами. Но был «раскрыт» и арестован. Перед тем, как его увели на казнь, Витя успел выпустить всех голубей на волю.
На Нюрнбергском процессе фото убитого мальчика с голубем в руках было представлено в числе документов, обличающих фашизм.
В 1954 году был включен в официальный список пионеров-героев, выпущенного в составе Книги почета Всесоюзной пионерской организации им. В.И. Ленина.




(English translation from the site)




Cherevichkin Viktor Ivanovich (1925-1941) - Rostov pioneer-hero. When the Germans in 1941, took Rostov-on-Don, they ordered the town pigeon owners to destroy all their birds. The Germans feared that using carrier pigeons Rostov will send intelligence information to the Soviet troops. But Victor did not obey the order and secretly continued to keep pigeons, with their help he established the connection with the guerrillas. But he was "discovered" and arrested. Before he was led away to death, Victor managed to release all the pigeons loose. At the Nuremberg trial a photo of a murdered boy with a dove in his hands was represented among all the documents denouncing fascism. In 1954 he was included in the official list of the pioneer heroes, released as part of the Book of Honor All-Union Pioneer Organization of V.I. Lenin.




  • (my emhpasis)


The Vladimir Lenin All-Union Pioneer Organisation was a Soviet youth organisation not dissimilar to the Scouts. As the Wikipedia article observes:




During the Second World War the Pioneers worked hard to contribute to the war effort at all costs. Thousands of them died in battles as military personnel and in the resistance against Nazi Germany in its occupied territories as partisans and Pioneers under secrecy in enemy-occupied towns and cities, even in concentration camps.




So it is entirely possible that the boy in the picture was a member of the Pioneers, and that he had been actively using his pigeons to communicate with Soviet forces. (It is equally possible that he had been shot for simply having pigeons and thus being suspected of communicating with Soviet forces.)




It is worth noting that the case of Vitya Cherevichny was mentioned in the records of the Trial of the major war criminals before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 14 November 1945-1 October 1946, Volume 7, p455. The record states simply that:




"In Rostov-on-Don a pupil of the commercial school, 15-year old Vitya Cherevichny, was playing in the yard with his pigeons. Some passing German soldiers began to steal the birds. The boy protested. The Germans took him away and shot him, at the corner of 27th Line and 2d Maisky Street for refusing to surrender his pigeons. With the heels of their boots the Hitlerites trampled his face out of all recognition."




Note that this makes no mention of Vitya being a member of the Pioneers or of any suspicion that he was in communication with Soviet forces.




I haven't (yet) found an English translation of the "official list of the pioneer heroes", released as part of the Book of Honor of the Vladimir Lenin All-Union Pioneer Organisation, but I suspect that you'll find more detail there.






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    So according to this he actively was using them for communication rather than keeping as pets?

    – Orangesandlemons
    Apr 6 at 22:25






  • 2





    @Orangesandlemons That is the claim on that website. However, I haven't (yet) been able to find an English translation of their source

    – sempaiscuba
    Apr 6 at 22:33






  • 1





    @Orangesandlemons Although, also note the information that I have added from the records of the Nuremberg trials.

    – sempaiscuba
    2 days ago






  • 1





    Yes, the new info is a big difference. Oh, and +1 for the thoroughly researched answer

    – Orangesandlemons
    2 days ago












  • My grandmother told a story how she moved to a new neighborhood in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, during WWII, and was interviewed by FBI agents after neighbors suggested the wild pigeons near her house could be carrier pigeons and she might be a spy. Considering the differences between the USA and Nazi Germany, a "shoot first and ask questions later" policy about pigeons doesn't seem unusual by - Nazi standards that is.

    – MAGolding
    9 hours ago



















13














The pigeons could have been homing pigeons, used to carry information from spies in Rostov-on-Don back to Soviet-controlled territory. There's no way for ordinary police or soldiers to tell if pigeons are homers: there's nothing obvious about them. Banning pigeon-keeping in occupied territory was fairly normal for the time; murdering children for disobeying the occupier's decrees was sadly normal for Nazi-occupied territory.



There's a lot of information about homing pigeons in wartime in the book Secret Pigeon Service: Operation Columba, Resistance and the Struggle to Liberate Europe by Gordon Corera, published by Collins in 2018.






share|improve this answer
































    1














    Pigeons are ubiquitous birds. There really is no such thing as "pet pigeons": pigeons are kept and bred as homing pigeons, and the breeds are distinguishable from city pigeons. There are numerous hobbyist breeders, and the principal competition they engage in is homing contests: they are not bred with a focus on their looks but on speed and reliability. In WWII, there was no such thing as encrypted radios, and radio signals can be intercepted and located. So homing pigeons were of usefulness in WWII. Even assuming that the boy had pigeons for mere pets because they did not pass muster, they would have been of an origin making them usable for homing: maybe not with top speed or reliability, but a sub-par channel is still better than none.



    So order and its execution might have been brutish and a war crime. But they were not arbitrary.






    share|improve this answer


















    • 6





      "In WWII, there was no such thing as encrypted radios." Radiotelegraphy was in widespread use during WWII (how else would you communicate with a submarine?) and you can certainly encrypt the message before sending it. I agree that radios are usually better for agents to receive messages than transmit them, but it's wrong to suggest there was no radio at the time. Remember that Marconi sent radio signals across the Atlantic 40 years before the time we're talking about. Radio wasn't anything new.

      – David Richerby
      2 days ago











    • @DavidRicherby - I think that the point was that radio messages used codes. Think like 5 Morse code characters per code group. So GF4VG might mean "airplane". Now the radio signal itself can be coded so such a code table isn't needed.

      – MaxW
      2 days ago






    • 1





      @MaxW you're describing an encoded message rather than an encrypted message. Encryption also existed during the second world war and is well known to have been used extensively (see, for example, Enigma). Modern encryption isn't fundamentally different from Enigma. It's more secure, and it's faster, and it's more automated, but at its root it still transforms a message to and from a nonsensical series of symbols, just as WWII-era encryption did.

      – phoog
      2 days ago







    • 1





      I can't help thinking we're arguing the toss here. To me, the original user's underlying point -- that the non-secrecy of radio due to technology limitations argued in favour of pigeons -- seems to stand.

      – Dannie
      yesterday






    • 5





      @Dannie One can certainly argue that pigeons have advantages over radio but this answer makes that argument by claiming things that are false.

      – David Richerby
      yesterday


















    1














    My grandmother told a story how she moved to a new neighborhood in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, during WWII, and was interviewed by FBI agents after neighbors suggested the wild pigeons near her house could be carrier pigeons and she might be a spy. Considering the differences between the USA and Nazi Germany, a "shoot first and ask questions later" policy about pigeons doesn't seem unusual by - Nazi standards that is.






    share|improve this answer























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      4 Answers
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      4 Answers
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      active

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      active

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      active

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      51














      The Germans were concerned that carrier pigeons would be used to communicate with Soviet forces. Carrier pigeons were used extensively during both World Wars.




      From the Rostov-on-Don tourism website:




      Черевичкин Виктор Иванович (1925–1941) – ростовский пионер-герой.
      Когда немцы в 1941 году взяли Ростов-на-Дону, они приказали городским владельцам голубятен уничтожить всех своих птиц. Гитлеровцы опасались, что с помощью почтовых голубей ростовчане будут передавать советским войскам разведывательную информацию.
      Но Витя не подчинился приказу и тайно продолжал держать голубей, с их помощью наладив связь с партизанами. Но был «раскрыт» и арестован. Перед тем, как его увели на казнь, Витя успел выпустить всех голубей на волю.
      На Нюрнбергском процессе фото убитого мальчика с голубем в руках было представлено в числе документов, обличающих фашизм.
      В 1954 году был включен в официальный список пионеров-героев, выпущенного в составе Книги почета Всесоюзной пионерской организации им. В.И. Ленина.




      (English translation from the site)




      Cherevichkin Viktor Ivanovich (1925-1941) - Rostov pioneer-hero. When the Germans in 1941, took Rostov-on-Don, they ordered the town pigeon owners to destroy all their birds. The Germans feared that using carrier pigeons Rostov will send intelligence information to the Soviet troops. But Victor did not obey the order and secretly continued to keep pigeons, with their help he established the connection with the guerrillas. But he was "discovered" and arrested. Before he was led away to death, Victor managed to release all the pigeons loose. At the Nuremberg trial a photo of a murdered boy with a dove in his hands was represented among all the documents denouncing fascism. In 1954 he was included in the official list of the pioneer heroes, released as part of the Book of Honor All-Union Pioneer Organization of V.I. Lenin.




      • (my emhpasis)


      The Vladimir Lenin All-Union Pioneer Organisation was a Soviet youth organisation not dissimilar to the Scouts. As the Wikipedia article observes:




      During the Second World War the Pioneers worked hard to contribute to the war effort at all costs. Thousands of them died in battles as military personnel and in the resistance against Nazi Germany in its occupied territories as partisans and Pioneers under secrecy in enemy-occupied towns and cities, even in concentration camps.




      So it is entirely possible that the boy in the picture was a member of the Pioneers, and that he had been actively using his pigeons to communicate with Soviet forces. (It is equally possible that he had been shot for simply having pigeons and thus being suspected of communicating with Soviet forces.)




      It is worth noting that the case of Vitya Cherevichny was mentioned in the records of the Trial of the major war criminals before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 14 November 1945-1 October 1946, Volume 7, p455. The record states simply that:




      "In Rostov-on-Don a pupil of the commercial school, 15-year old Vitya Cherevichny, was playing in the yard with his pigeons. Some passing German soldiers began to steal the birds. The boy protested. The Germans took him away and shot him, at the corner of 27th Line and 2d Maisky Street for refusing to surrender his pigeons. With the heels of their boots the Hitlerites trampled his face out of all recognition."




      Note that this makes no mention of Vitya being a member of the Pioneers or of any suspicion that he was in communication with Soviet forces.




      I haven't (yet) found an English translation of the "official list of the pioneer heroes", released as part of the Book of Honor of the Vladimir Lenin All-Union Pioneer Organisation, but I suspect that you'll find more detail there.






      share|improve this answer




















      • 1





        So according to this he actively was using them for communication rather than keeping as pets?

        – Orangesandlemons
        Apr 6 at 22:25






      • 2





        @Orangesandlemons That is the claim on that website. However, I haven't (yet) been able to find an English translation of their source

        – sempaiscuba
        Apr 6 at 22:33






      • 1





        @Orangesandlemons Although, also note the information that I have added from the records of the Nuremberg trials.

        – sempaiscuba
        2 days ago






      • 1





        Yes, the new info is a big difference. Oh, and +1 for the thoroughly researched answer

        – Orangesandlemons
        2 days ago












      • My grandmother told a story how she moved to a new neighborhood in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, during WWII, and was interviewed by FBI agents after neighbors suggested the wild pigeons near her house could be carrier pigeons and she might be a spy. Considering the differences between the USA and Nazi Germany, a "shoot first and ask questions later" policy about pigeons doesn't seem unusual by - Nazi standards that is.

        – MAGolding
        9 hours ago
















      51














      The Germans were concerned that carrier pigeons would be used to communicate with Soviet forces. Carrier pigeons were used extensively during both World Wars.




      From the Rostov-on-Don tourism website:




      Черевичкин Виктор Иванович (1925–1941) – ростовский пионер-герой.
      Когда немцы в 1941 году взяли Ростов-на-Дону, они приказали городским владельцам голубятен уничтожить всех своих птиц. Гитлеровцы опасались, что с помощью почтовых голубей ростовчане будут передавать советским войскам разведывательную информацию.
      Но Витя не подчинился приказу и тайно продолжал держать голубей, с их помощью наладив связь с партизанами. Но был «раскрыт» и арестован. Перед тем, как его увели на казнь, Витя успел выпустить всех голубей на волю.
      На Нюрнбергском процессе фото убитого мальчика с голубем в руках было представлено в числе документов, обличающих фашизм.
      В 1954 году был включен в официальный список пионеров-героев, выпущенного в составе Книги почета Всесоюзной пионерской организации им. В.И. Ленина.




      (English translation from the site)




      Cherevichkin Viktor Ivanovich (1925-1941) - Rostov pioneer-hero. When the Germans in 1941, took Rostov-on-Don, they ordered the town pigeon owners to destroy all their birds. The Germans feared that using carrier pigeons Rostov will send intelligence information to the Soviet troops. But Victor did not obey the order and secretly continued to keep pigeons, with their help he established the connection with the guerrillas. But he was "discovered" and arrested. Before he was led away to death, Victor managed to release all the pigeons loose. At the Nuremberg trial a photo of a murdered boy with a dove in his hands was represented among all the documents denouncing fascism. In 1954 he was included in the official list of the pioneer heroes, released as part of the Book of Honor All-Union Pioneer Organization of V.I. Lenin.




      • (my emhpasis)


      The Vladimir Lenin All-Union Pioneer Organisation was a Soviet youth organisation not dissimilar to the Scouts. As the Wikipedia article observes:




      During the Second World War the Pioneers worked hard to contribute to the war effort at all costs. Thousands of them died in battles as military personnel and in the resistance against Nazi Germany in its occupied territories as partisans and Pioneers under secrecy in enemy-occupied towns and cities, even in concentration camps.




      So it is entirely possible that the boy in the picture was a member of the Pioneers, and that he had been actively using his pigeons to communicate with Soviet forces. (It is equally possible that he had been shot for simply having pigeons and thus being suspected of communicating with Soviet forces.)




      It is worth noting that the case of Vitya Cherevichny was mentioned in the records of the Trial of the major war criminals before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 14 November 1945-1 October 1946, Volume 7, p455. The record states simply that:




      "In Rostov-on-Don a pupil of the commercial school, 15-year old Vitya Cherevichny, was playing in the yard with his pigeons. Some passing German soldiers began to steal the birds. The boy protested. The Germans took him away and shot him, at the corner of 27th Line and 2d Maisky Street for refusing to surrender his pigeons. With the heels of their boots the Hitlerites trampled his face out of all recognition."




      Note that this makes no mention of Vitya being a member of the Pioneers or of any suspicion that he was in communication with Soviet forces.




      I haven't (yet) found an English translation of the "official list of the pioneer heroes", released as part of the Book of Honor of the Vladimir Lenin All-Union Pioneer Organisation, but I suspect that you'll find more detail there.






      share|improve this answer




















      • 1





        So according to this he actively was using them for communication rather than keeping as pets?

        – Orangesandlemons
        Apr 6 at 22:25






      • 2





        @Orangesandlemons That is the claim on that website. However, I haven't (yet) been able to find an English translation of their source

        – sempaiscuba
        Apr 6 at 22:33






      • 1





        @Orangesandlemons Although, also note the information that I have added from the records of the Nuremberg trials.

        – sempaiscuba
        2 days ago






      • 1





        Yes, the new info is a big difference. Oh, and +1 for the thoroughly researched answer

        – Orangesandlemons
        2 days ago












      • My grandmother told a story how she moved to a new neighborhood in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, during WWII, and was interviewed by FBI agents after neighbors suggested the wild pigeons near her house could be carrier pigeons and she might be a spy. Considering the differences between the USA and Nazi Germany, a "shoot first and ask questions later" policy about pigeons doesn't seem unusual by - Nazi standards that is.

        – MAGolding
        9 hours ago














      51












      51








      51







      The Germans were concerned that carrier pigeons would be used to communicate with Soviet forces. Carrier pigeons were used extensively during both World Wars.




      From the Rostov-on-Don tourism website:




      Черевичкин Виктор Иванович (1925–1941) – ростовский пионер-герой.
      Когда немцы в 1941 году взяли Ростов-на-Дону, они приказали городским владельцам голубятен уничтожить всех своих птиц. Гитлеровцы опасались, что с помощью почтовых голубей ростовчане будут передавать советским войскам разведывательную информацию.
      Но Витя не подчинился приказу и тайно продолжал держать голубей, с их помощью наладив связь с партизанами. Но был «раскрыт» и арестован. Перед тем, как его увели на казнь, Витя успел выпустить всех голубей на волю.
      На Нюрнбергском процессе фото убитого мальчика с голубем в руках было представлено в числе документов, обличающих фашизм.
      В 1954 году был включен в официальный список пионеров-героев, выпущенного в составе Книги почета Всесоюзной пионерской организации им. В.И. Ленина.




      (English translation from the site)




      Cherevichkin Viktor Ivanovich (1925-1941) - Rostov pioneer-hero. When the Germans in 1941, took Rostov-on-Don, they ordered the town pigeon owners to destroy all their birds. The Germans feared that using carrier pigeons Rostov will send intelligence information to the Soviet troops. But Victor did not obey the order and secretly continued to keep pigeons, with their help he established the connection with the guerrillas. But he was "discovered" and arrested. Before he was led away to death, Victor managed to release all the pigeons loose. At the Nuremberg trial a photo of a murdered boy with a dove in his hands was represented among all the documents denouncing fascism. In 1954 he was included in the official list of the pioneer heroes, released as part of the Book of Honor All-Union Pioneer Organization of V.I. Lenin.




      • (my emhpasis)


      The Vladimir Lenin All-Union Pioneer Organisation was a Soviet youth organisation not dissimilar to the Scouts. As the Wikipedia article observes:




      During the Second World War the Pioneers worked hard to contribute to the war effort at all costs. Thousands of them died in battles as military personnel and in the resistance against Nazi Germany in its occupied territories as partisans and Pioneers under secrecy in enemy-occupied towns and cities, even in concentration camps.




      So it is entirely possible that the boy in the picture was a member of the Pioneers, and that he had been actively using his pigeons to communicate with Soviet forces. (It is equally possible that he had been shot for simply having pigeons and thus being suspected of communicating with Soviet forces.)




      It is worth noting that the case of Vitya Cherevichny was mentioned in the records of the Trial of the major war criminals before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 14 November 1945-1 October 1946, Volume 7, p455. The record states simply that:




      "In Rostov-on-Don a pupil of the commercial school, 15-year old Vitya Cherevichny, was playing in the yard with his pigeons. Some passing German soldiers began to steal the birds. The boy protested. The Germans took him away and shot him, at the corner of 27th Line and 2d Maisky Street for refusing to surrender his pigeons. With the heels of their boots the Hitlerites trampled his face out of all recognition."




      Note that this makes no mention of Vitya being a member of the Pioneers or of any suspicion that he was in communication with Soviet forces.




      I haven't (yet) found an English translation of the "official list of the pioneer heroes", released as part of the Book of Honor of the Vladimir Lenin All-Union Pioneer Organisation, but I suspect that you'll find more detail there.






      share|improve this answer















      The Germans were concerned that carrier pigeons would be used to communicate with Soviet forces. Carrier pigeons were used extensively during both World Wars.




      From the Rostov-on-Don tourism website:




      Черевичкин Виктор Иванович (1925–1941) – ростовский пионер-герой.
      Когда немцы в 1941 году взяли Ростов-на-Дону, они приказали городским владельцам голубятен уничтожить всех своих птиц. Гитлеровцы опасались, что с помощью почтовых голубей ростовчане будут передавать советским войскам разведывательную информацию.
      Но Витя не подчинился приказу и тайно продолжал держать голубей, с их помощью наладив связь с партизанами. Но был «раскрыт» и арестован. Перед тем, как его увели на казнь, Витя успел выпустить всех голубей на волю.
      На Нюрнбергском процессе фото убитого мальчика с голубем в руках было представлено в числе документов, обличающих фашизм.
      В 1954 году был включен в официальный список пионеров-героев, выпущенного в составе Книги почета Всесоюзной пионерской организации им. В.И. Ленина.




      (English translation from the site)




      Cherevichkin Viktor Ivanovich (1925-1941) - Rostov pioneer-hero. When the Germans in 1941, took Rostov-on-Don, they ordered the town pigeon owners to destroy all their birds. The Germans feared that using carrier pigeons Rostov will send intelligence information to the Soviet troops. But Victor did not obey the order and secretly continued to keep pigeons, with their help he established the connection with the guerrillas. But he was "discovered" and arrested. Before he was led away to death, Victor managed to release all the pigeons loose. At the Nuremberg trial a photo of a murdered boy with a dove in his hands was represented among all the documents denouncing fascism. In 1954 he was included in the official list of the pioneer heroes, released as part of the Book of Honor All-Union Pioneer Organization of V.I. Lenin.




      • (my emhpasis)


      The Vladimir Lenin All-Union Pioneer Organisation was a Soviet youth organisation not dissimilar to the Scouts. As the Wikipedia article observes:




      During the Second World War the Pioneers worked hard to contribute to the war effort at all costs. Thousands of them died in battles as military personnel and in the resistance against Nazi Germany in its occupied territories as partisans and Pioneers under secrecy in enemy-occupied towns and cities, even in concentration camps.




      So it is entirely possible that the boy in the picture was a member of the Pioneers, and that he had been actively using his pigeons to communicate with Soviet forces. (It is equally possible that he had been shot for simply having pigeons and thus being suspected of communicating with Soviet forces.)




      It is worth noting that the case of Vitya Cherevichny was mentioned in the records of the Trial of the major war criminals before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 14 November 1945-1 October 1946, Volume 7, p455. The record states simply that:




      "In Rostov-on-Don a pupil of the commercial school, 15-year old Vitya Cherevichny, was playing in the yard with his pigeons. Some passing German soldiers began to steal the birds. The boy protested. The Germans took him away and shot him, at the corner of 27th Line and 2d Maisky Street for refusing to surrender his pigeons. With the heels of their boots the Hitlerites trampled his face out of all recognition."




      Note that this makes no mention of Vitya being a member of the Pioneers or of any suspicion that he was in communication with Soviet forces.




      I haven't (yet) found an English translation of the "official list of the pioneer heroes", released as part of the Book of Honor of the Vladimir Lenin All-Union Pioneer Organisation, but I suspect that you'll find more detail there.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited 2 days ago

























      answered Apr 6 at 22:17









      sempaiscubasempaiscuba

      53.7k6186234




      53.7k6186234







      • 1





        So according to this he actively was using them for communication rather than keeping as pets?

        – Orangesandlemons
        Apr 6 at 22:25






      • 2





        @Orangesandlemons That is the claim on that website. However, I haven't (yet) been able to find an English translation of their source

        – sempaiscuba
        Apr 6 at 22:33






      • 1





        @Orangesandlemons Although, also note the information that I have added from the records of the Nuremberg trials.

        – sempaiscuba
        2 days ago






      • 1





        Yes, the new info is a big difference. Oh, and +1 for the thoroughly researched answer

        – Orangesandlemons
        2 days ago












      • My grandmother told a story how she moved to a new neighborhood in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, during WWII, and was interviewed by FBI agents after neighbors suggested the wild pigeons near her house could be carrier pigeons and she might be a spy. Considering the differences between the USA and Nazi Germany, a "shoot first and ask questions later" policy about pigeons doesn't seem unusual by - Nazi standards that is.

        – MAGolding
        9 hours ago













      • 1





        So according to this he actively was using them for communication rather than keeping as pets?

        – Orangesandlemons
        Apr 6 at 22:25






      • 2





        @Orangesandlemons That is the claim on that website. However, I haven't (yet) been able to find an English translation of their source

        – sempaiscuba
        Apr 6 at 22:33






      • 1





        @Orangesandlemons Although, also note the information that I have added from the records of the Nuremberg trials.

        – sempaiscuba
        2 days ago






      • 1





        Yes, the new info is a big difference. Oh, and +1 for the thoroughly researched answer

        – Orangesandlemons
        2 days ago












      • My grandmother told a story how she moved to a new neighborhood in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, during WWII, and was interviewed by FBI agents after neighbors suggested the wild pigeons near her house could be carrier pigeons and she might be a spy. Considering the differences between the USA and Nazi Germany, a "shoot first and ask questions later" policy about pigeons doesn't seem unusual by - Nazi standards that is.

        – MAGolding
        9 hours ago








      1




      1





      So according to this he actively was using them for communication rather than keeping as pets?

      – Orangesandlemons
      Apr 6 at 22:25





      So according to this he actively was using them for communication rather than keeping as pets?

      – Orangesandlemons
      Apr 6 at 22:25




      2




      2





      @Orangesandlemons That is the claim on that website. However, I haven't (yet) been able to find an English translation of their source

      – sempaiscuba
      Apr 6 at 22:33





      @Orangesandlemons That is the claim on that website. However, I haven't (yet) been able to find an English translation of their source

      – sempaiscuba
      Apr 6 at 22:33




      1




      1





      @Orangesandlemons Although, also note the information that I have added from the records of the Nuremberg trials.

      – sempaiscuba
      2 days ago





      @Orangesandlemons Although, also note the information that I have added from the records of the Nuremberg trials.

      – sempaiscuba
      2 days ago




      1




      1





      Yes, the new info is a big difference. Oh, and +1 for the thoroughly researched answer

      – Orangesandlemons
      2 days ago






      Yes, the new info is a big difference. Oh, and +1 for the thoroughly researched answer

      – Orangesandlemons
      2 days ago














      My grandmother told a story how she moved to a new neighborhood in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, during WWII, and was interviewed by FBI agents after neighbors suggested the wild pigeons near her house could be carrier pigeons and she might be a spy. Considering the differences between the USA and Nazi Germany, a "shoot first and ask questions later" policy about pigeons doesn't seem unusual by - Nazi standards that is.

      – MAGolding
      9 hours ago






      My grandmother told a story how she moved to a new neighborhood in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, during WWII, and was interviewed by FBI agents after neighbors suggested the wild pigeons near her house could be carrier pigeons and she might be a spy. Considering the differences between the USA and Nazi Germany, a "shoot first and ask questions later" policy about pigeons doesn't seem unusual by - Nazi standards that is.

      – MAGolding
      9 hours ago












      13














      The pigeons could have been homing pigeons, used to carry information from spies in Rostov-on-Don back to Soviet-controlled territory. There's no way for ordinary police or soldiers to tell if pigeons are homers: there's nothing obvious about them. Banning pigeon-keeping in occupied territory was fairly normal for the time; murdering children for disobeying the occupier's decrees was sadly normal for Nazi-occupied territory.



      There's a lot of information about homing pigeons in wartime in the book Secret Pigeon Service: Operation Columba, Resistance and the Struggle to Liberate Europe by Gordon Corera, published by Collins in 2018.






      share|improve this answer





























        13














        The pigeons could have been homing pigeons, used to carry information from spies in Rostov-on-Don back to Soviet-controlled territory. There's no way for ordinary police or soldiers to tell if pigeons are homers: there's nothing obvious about them. Banning pigeon-keeping in occupied territory was fairly normal for the time; murdering children for disobeying the occupier's decrees was sadly normal for Nazi-occupied territory.



        There's a lot of information about homing pigeons in wartime in the book Secret Pigeon Service: Operation Columba, Resistance and the Struggle to Liberate Europe by Gordon Corera, published by Collins in 2018.






        share|improve this answer



























          13












          13








          13







          The pigeons could have been homing pigeons, used to carry information from spies in Rostov-on-Don back to Soviet-controlled territory. There's no way for ordinary police or soldiers to tell if pigeons are homers: there's nothing obvious about them. Banning pigeon-keeping in occupied territory was fairly normal for the time; murdering children for disobeying the occupier's decrees was sadly normal for Nazi-occupied territory.



          There's a lot of information about homing pigeons in wartime in the book Secret Pigeon Service: Operation Columba, Resistance and the Struggle to Liberate Europe by Gordon Corera, published by Collins in 2018.






          share|improve this answer















          The pigeons could have been homing pigeons, used to carry information from spies in Rostov-on-Don back to Soviet-controlled territory. There's no way for ordinary police or soldiers to tell if pigeons are homers: there's nothing obvious about them. Banning pigeon-keeping in occupied territory was fairly normal for the time; murdering children for disobeying the occupier's decrees was sadly normal for Nazi-occupied territory.



          There's a lot of information about homing pigeons in wartime in the book Secret Pigeon Service: Operation Columba, Resistance and the Struggle to Liberate Europe by Gordon Corera, published by Collins in 2018.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 2 days ago

























          answered Apr 6 at 22:23









          John DallmanJohn Dallman

          18k35885




          18k35885





















              1














              Pigeons are ubiquitous birds. There really is no such thing as "pet pigeons": pigeons are kept and bred as homing pigeons, and the breeds are distinguishable from city pigeons. There are numerous hobbyist breeders, and the principal competition they engage in is homing contests: they are not bred with a focus on their looks but on speed and reliability. In WWII, there was no such thing as encrypted radios, and radio signals can be intercepted and located. So homing pigeons were of usefulness in WWII. Even assuming that the boy had pigeons for mere pets because they did not pass muster, they would have been of an origin making them usable for homing: maybe not with top speed or reliability, but a sub-par channel is still better than none.



              So order and its execution might have been brutish and a war crime. But they were not arbitrary.






              share|improve this answer


















              • 6





                "In WWII, there was no such thing as encrypted radios." Radiotelegraphy was in widespread use during WWII (how else would you communicate with a submarine?) and you can certainly encrypt the message before sending it. I agree that radios are usually better for agents to receive messages than transmit them, but it's wrong to suggest there was no radio at the time. Remember that Marconi sent radio signals across the Atlantic 40 years before the time we're talking about. Radio wasn't anything new.

                – David Richerby
                2 days ago











              • @DavidRicherby - I think that the point was that radio messages used codes. Think like 5 Morse code characters per code group. So GF4VG might mean "airplane". Now the radio signal itself can be coded so such a code table isn't needed.

                – MaxW
                2 days ago






              • 1





                @MaxW you're describing an encoded message rather than an encrypted message. Encryption also existed during the second world war and is well known to have been used extensively (see, for example, Enigma). Modern encryption isn't fundamentally different from Enigma. It's more secure, and it's faster, and it's more automated, but at its root it still transforms a message to and from a nonsensical series of symbols, just as WWII-era encryption did.

                – phoog
                2 days ago







              • 1





                I can't help thinking we're arguing the toss here. To me, the original user's underlying point -- that the non-secrecy of radio due to technology limitations argued in favour of pigeons -- seems to stand.

                – Dannie
                yesterday






              • 5





                @Dannie One can certainly argue that pigeons have advantages over radio but this answer makes that argument by claiming things that are false.

                – David Richerby
                yesterday















              1














              Pigeons are ubiquitous birds. There really is no such thing as "pet pigeons": pigeons are kept and bred as homing pigeons, and the breeds are distinguishable from city pigeons. There are numerous hobbyist breeders, and the principal competition they engage in is homing contests: they are not bred with a focus on their looks but on speed and reliability. In WWII, there was no such thing as encrypted radios, and radio signals can be intercepted and located. So homing pigeons were of usefulness in WWII. Even assuming that the boy had pigeons for mere pets because they did not pass muster, they would have been of an origin making them usable for homing: maybe not with top speed or reliability, but a sub-par channel is still better than none.



              So order and its execution might have been brutish and a war crime. But they were not arbitrary.






              share|improve this answer


















              • 6





                "In WWII, there was no such thing as encrypted radios." Radiotelegraphy was in widespread use during WWII (how else would you communicate with a submarine?) and you can certainly encrypt the message before sending it. I agree that radios are usually better for agents to receive messages than transmit them, but it's wrong to suggest there was no radio at the time. Remember that Marconi sent radio signals across the Atlantic 40 years before the time we're talking about. Radio wasn't anything new.

                – David Richerby
                2 days ago











              • @DavidRicherby - I think that the point was that radio messages used codes. Think like 5 Morse code characters per code group. So GF4VG might mean "airplane". Now the radio signal itself can be coded so such a code table isn't needed.

                – MaxW
                2 days ago






              • 1





                @MaxW you're describing an encoded message rather than an encrypted message. Encryption also existed during the second world war and is well known to have been used extensively (see, for example, Enigma). Modern encryption isn't fundamentally different from Enigma. It's more secure, and it's faster, and it's more automated, but at its root it still transforms a message to and from a nonsensical series of symbols, just as WWII-era encryption did.

                – phoog
                2 days ago







              • 1





                I can't help thinking we're arguing the toss here. To me, the original user's underlying point -- that the non-secrecy of radio due to technology limitations argued in favour of pigeons -- seems to stand.

                – Dannie
                yesterday






              • 5





                @Dannie One can certainly argue that pigeons have advantages over radio but this answer makes that argument by claiming things that are false.

                – David Richerby
                yesterday













              1












              1








              1







              Pigeons are ubiquitous birds. There really is no such thing as "pet pigeons": pigeons are kept and bred as homing pigeons, and the breeds are distinguishable from city pigeons. There are numerous hobbyist breeders, and the principal competition they engage in is homing contests: they are not bred with a focus on their looks but on speed and reliability. In WWII, there was no such thing as encrypted radios, and radio signals can be intercepted and located. So homing pigeons were of usefulness in WWII. Even assuming that the boy had pigeons for mere pets because they did not pass muster, they would have been of an origin making them usable for homing: maybe not with top speed or reliability, but a sub-par channel is still better than none.



              So order and its execution might have been brutish and a war crime. But they were not arbitrary.






              share|improve this answer













              Pigeons are ubiquitous birds. There really is no such thing as "pet pigeons": pigeons are kept and bred as homing pigeons, and the breeds are distinguishable from city pigeons. There are numerous hobbyist breeders, and the principal competition they engage in is homing contests: they are not bred with a focus on their looks but on speed and reliability. In WWII, there was no such thing as encrypted radios, and radio signals can be intercepted and located. So homing pigeons were of usefulness in WWII. Even assuming that the boy had pigeons for mere pets because they did not pass muster, they would have been of an origin making them usable for homing: maybe not with top speed or reliability, but a sub-par channel is still better than none.



              So order and its execution might have been brutish and a war crime. But they were not arbitrary.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered 2 days ago







              user37383














              • 6





                "In WWII, there was no such thing as encrypted radios." Radiotelegraphy was in widespread use during WWII (how else would you communicate with a submarine?) and you can certainly encrypt the message before sending it. I agree that radios are usually better for agents to receive messages than transmit them, but it's wrong to suggest there was no radio at the time. Remember that Marconi sent radio signals across the Atlantic 40 years before the time we're talking about. Radio wasn't anything new.

                – David Richerby
                2 days ago











              • @DavidRicherby - I think that the point was that radio messages used codes. Think like 5 Morse code characters per code group. So GF4VG might mean "airplane". Now the radio signal itself can be coded so such a code table isn't needed.

                – MaxW
                2 days ago






              • 1





                @MaxW you're describing an encoded message rather than an encrypted message. Encryption also existed during the second world war and is well known to have been used extensively (see, for example, Enigma). Modern encryption isn't fundamentally different from Enigma. It's more secure, and it's faster, and it's more automated, but at its root it still transforms a message to and from a nonsensical series of symbols, just as WWII-era encryption did.

                – phoog
                2 days ago







              • 1





                I can't help thinking we're arguing the toss here. To me, the original user's underlying point -- that the non-secrecy of radio due to technology limitations argued in favour of pigeons -- seems to stand.

                – Dannie
                yesterday






              • 5





                @Dannie One can certainly argue that pigeons have advantages over radio but this answer makes that argument by claiming things that are false.

                – David Richerby
                yesterday












              • 6





                "In WWII, there was no such thing as encrypted radios." Radiotelegraphy was in widespread use during WWII (how else would you communicate with a submarine?) and you can certainly encrypt the message before sending it. I agree that radios are usually better for agents to receive messages than transmit them, but it's wrong to suggest there was no radio at the time. Remember that Marconi sent radio signals across the Atlantic 40 years before the time we're talking about. Radio wasn't anything new.

                – David Richerby
                2 days ago











              • @DavidRicherby - I think that the point was that radio messages used codes. Think like 5 Morse code characters per code group. So GF4VG might mean "airplane". Now the radio signal itself can be coded so such a code table isn't needed.

                – MaxW
                2 days ago






              • 1





                @MaxW you're describing an encoded message rather than an encrypted message. Encryption also existed during the second world war and is well known to have been used extensively (see, for example, Enigma). Modern encryption isn't fundamentally different from Enigma. It's more secure, and it's faster, and it's more automated, but at its root it still transforms a message to and from a nonsensical series of symbols, just as WWII-era encryption did.

                – phoog
                2 days ago







              • 1





                I can't help thinking we're arguing the toss here. To me, the original user's underlying point -- that the non-secrecy of radio due to technology limitations argued in favour of pigeons -- seems to stand.

                – Dannie
                yesterday






              • 5





                @Dannie One can certainly argue that pigeons have advantages over radio but this answer makes that argument by claiming things that are false.

                – David Richerby
                yesterday







              6




              6





              "In WWII, there was no such thing as encrypted radios." Radiotelegraphy was in widespread use during WWII (how else would you communicate with a submarine?) and you can certainly encrypt the message before sending it. I agree that radios are usually better for agents to receive messages than transmit them, but it's wrong to suggest there was no radio at the time. Remember that Marconi sent radio signals across the Atlantic 40 years before the time we're talking about. Radio wasn't anything new.

              – David Richerby
              2 days ago





              "In WWII, there was no such thing as encrypted radios." Radiotelegraphy was in widespread use during WWII (how else would you communicate with a submarine?) and you can certainly encrypt the message before sending it. I agree that radios are usually better for agents to receive messages than transmit them, but it's wrong to suggest there was no radio at the time. Remember that Marconi sent radio signals across the Atlantic 40 years before the time we're talking about. Radio wasn't anything new.

              – David Richerby
              2 days ago













              @DavidRicherby - I think that the point was that radio messages used codes. Think like 5 Morse code characters per code group. So GF4VG might mean "airplane". Now the radio signal itself can be coded so such a code table isn't needed.

              – MaxW
              2 days ago





              @DavidRicherby - I think that the point was that radio messages used codes. Think like 5 Morse code characters per code group. So GF4VG might mean "airplane". Now the radio signal itself can be coded so such a code table isn't needed.

              – MaxW
              2 days ago




              1




              1





              @MaxW you're describing an encoded message rather than an encrypted message. Encryption also existed during the second world war and is well known to have been used extensively (see, for example, Enigma). Modern encryption isn't fundamentally different from Enigma. It's more secure, and it's faster, and it's more automated, but at its root it still transforms a message to and from a nonsensical series of symbols, just as WWII-era encryption did.

              – phoog
              2 days ago






              @MaxW you're describing an encoded message rather than an encrypted message. Encryption also existed during the second world war and is well known to have been used extensively (see, for example, Enigma). Modern encryption isn't fundamentally different from Enigma. It's more secure, and it's faster, and it's more automated, but at its root it still transforms a message to and from a nonsensical series of symbols, just as WWII-era encryption did.

              – phoog
              2 days ago





              1




              1





              I can't help thinking we're arguing the toss here. To me, the original user's underlying point -- that the non-secrecy of radio due to technology limitations argued in favour of pigeons -- seems to stand.

              – Dannie
              yesterday





              I can't help thinking we're arguing the toss here. To me, the original user's underlying point -- that the non-secrecy of radio due to technology limitations argued in favour of pigeons -- seems to stand.

              – Dannie
              yesterday




              5




              5





              @Dannie One can certainly argue that pigeons have advantages over radio but this answer makes that argument by claiming things that are false.

              – David Richerby
              yesterday





              @Dannie One can certainly argue that pigeons have advantages over radio but this answer makes that argument by claiming things that are false.

              – David Richerby
              yesterday











              1














              My grandmother told a story how she moved to a new neighborhood in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, during WWII, and was interviewed by FBI agents after neighbors suggested the wild pigeons near her house could be carrier pigeons and she might be a spy. Considering the differences between the USA and Nazi Germany, a "shoot first and ask questions later" policy about pigeons doesn't seem unusual by - Nazi standards that is.






              share|improve this answer



























                1














                My grandmother told a story how she moved to a new neighborhood in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, during WWII, and was interviewed by FBI agents after neighbors suggested the wild pigeons near her house could be carrier pigeons and she might be a spy. Considering the differences between the USA and Nazi Germany, a "shoot first and ask questions later" policy about pigeons doesn't seem unusual by - Nazi standards that is.






                share|improve this answer

























                  1












                  1








                  1







                  My grandmother told a story how she moved to a new neighborhood in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, during WWII, and was interviewed by FBI agents after neighbors suggested the wild pigeons near her house could be carrier pigeons and she might be a spy. Considering the differences between the USA and Nazi Germany, a "shoot first and ask questions later" policy about pigeons doesn't seem unusual by - Nazi standards that is.






                  share|improve this answer













                  My grandmother told a story how she moved to a new neighborhood in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, during WWII, and was interviewed by FBI agents after neighbors suggested the wild pigeons near her house could be carrier pigeons and she might be a spy. Considering the differences between the USA and Nazi Germany, a "shoot first and ask questions later" policy about pigeons doesn't seem unusual by - Nazi standards that is.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 9 hours ago









                  MAGoldingMAGolding

                  6,946828




                  6,946828



























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