Do wooden building fires get hotter than 600°C? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Is it possible to get to the power needed to thrust a rocket so that it can escape from earth?Do knives get dull in dishwashers?Are electric chairs powered by generators connected to the mains in the same building?Is it impossible to fold a sheet of paper in half more than seven times?Is it dangerous to throw a coin off a building?More stars than grains of sand?Do you get less wet walking through a vertical rainstorm than running through it?Can a man fall faster than the speed of sound?Are rising temperatures making fires worse?Did this building cause carpet to burn and cars to melt?

What are the out-of-universe reasons for the references to Toby Maguire-era Spider-Man in ITSV

Did MS DOS itself ever use blinking text?

How to compare two different files line by line in unix?

Why aren't air breathing engines used as small first stages

Why are both D and D# fitting into my E minor key?

Generate an RGB colour grid

Why wasn't DOSKEY integrated with COMMAND.COM?

Is the Standard Deduction better than Itemized when both are the same amount?

Do wooden building fires get hotter than 600°C?

What's the meaning of "fortified infraction restraint"?

How does the math work when buying airline miles?

Would "destroying" Wurmcoil Engine prevent its tokens from being created?

Is there such thing as an Availability Group failover trigger?

What would be the ideal power source for a cybernetic eye?

Where are Serre’s lectures at Collège de France to be found?

Integration Help

How to react to hostile behavior from a senior developer?

What is homebrew?

For a new assistant professor in CS, how to build/manage a publication pipeline

Significance of Cersei's obsession with elephants?

Using et al. for a last / senior author rather than for a first author

What is the longest distance a player character can jump in one leap?

Do I really need to have a message in a novel to appeal to readers?

When the Haste spell ends on a creature, do attackers have advantage against that creature?



Do wooden building fires get hotter than 600°C?



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Is it possible to get to the power needed to thrust a rocket so that it can escape from earth?Do knives get dull in dishwashers?Are electric chairs powered by generators connected to the mains in the same building?Is it impossible to fold a sheet of paper in half more than seven times?Is it dangerous to throw a coin off a building?More stars than grains of sand?Do you get less wet walking through a vertical rainstorm than running through it?Can a man fall faster than the speed of sound?Are rising temperatures making fires worse?Did this building cause carpet to burn and cars to melt?










25















After the recent Notre-Dame de Paris fire, there has been a heavily re-posted tweet going around in response to an earlier claim that a golden cross did not melt or deform - due to an act of God.



enter image description here




the Notre Dame Cathedral was a wood fire, and as such could only have reached 600°C, while gold requires 1064°C to melt.




The melting point of gold varies based on purity, and can thus be lower than 1064°C.



However; do wooden buildings, such as the Notre Dame Cathedral, burn at temperatures above 600°C?



I'm obviously not interested in any debate over whether this was an "Act of God" or other unprovable matters.



In terms of personal research, what I have found is that while wood itself will not burn much hotter than 600°C, once it turns to charcoal - it can then reach over 1100°C. However I don't know enough about physics/chemistry or fires, to make a reasonable judgement on how that applies in a real-life fire.










share|improve this question









New contributor




Bilkokuya is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.















  • 4





    The question about wood fire temps is valid, but the original Twitter statement with the pic is bogus. Look at many other pics of the damage (e.g. news.sky.com/story/…): the fire never reached that part of the church. Voting to close as not notable.

    – Jan Doggen
    10 hours ago






  • 3





    @JanDoggen: It's kind of ironic that the sky.com article you link contains a passage that echoes the original Twitter post (i.e. that it is notable after all that the cross was not damaged in the fire): "The cross and altar miraculously survived the inferno, which are now regarded as a beacon of hope."

    – Schmuddi
    9 hours ago






  • 10





    Uh, heat rises. The fire was in the attic. What's "notable" (in some sense) is that the inner ceiling (mostly) "held", so that relatively little debris fell into the altar area. Gold is soft, and a falling timber could have easily smashed the cross.

    – Daniel R Hicks
    9 hours ago






  • 32





    Never mind the gold cross, why aren't any of those wax candles melted?

    – plasticinsect
    8 hours ago






  • 18





    @plasticinsect you nailed it: the candles which are designed to burn are not burned, hence there was no fire here. That's consistent with the reports that only the roof burned. The damage below was from falling debris, not fire.

    – TemporalWolf
    7 hours ago















25















After the recent Notre-Dame de Paris fire, there has been a heavily re-posted tweet going around in response to an earlier claim that a golden cross did not melt or deform - due to an act of God.



enter image description here




the Notre Dame Cathedral was a wood fire, and as such could only have reached 600°C, while gold requires 1064°C to melt.




The melting point of gold varies based on purity, and can thus be lower than 1064°C.



However; do wooden buildings, such as the Notre Dame Cathedral, burn at temperatures above 600°C?



I'm obviously not interested in any debate over whether this was an "Act of God" or other unprovable matters.



In terms of personal research, what I have found is that while wood itself will not burn much hotter than 600°C, once it turns to charcoal - it can then reach over 1100°C. However I don't know enough about physics/chemistry or fires, to make a reasonable judgement on how that applies in a real-life fire.










share|improve this question









New contributor




Bilkokuya is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.















  • 4





    The question about wood fire temps is valid, but the original Twitter statement with the pic is bogus. Look at many other pics of the damage (e.g. news.sky.com/story/…): the fire never reached that part of the church. Voting to close as not notable.

    – Jan Doggen
    10 hours ago






  • 3





    @JanDoggen: It's kind of ironic that the sky.com article you link contains a passage that echoes the original Twitter post (i.e. that it is notable after all that the cross was not damaged in the fire): "The cross and altar miraculously survived the inferno, which are now regarded as a beacon of hope."

    – Schmuddi
    9 hours ago






  • 10





    Uh, heat rises. The fire was in the attic. What's "notable" (in some sense) is that the inner ceiling (mostly) "held", so that relatively little debris fell into the altar area. Gold is soft, and a falling timber could have easily smashed the cross.

    – Daniel R Hicks
    9 hours ago






  • 32





    Never mind the gold cross, why aren't any of those wax candles melted?

    – plasticinsect
    8 hours ago






  • 18





    @plasticinsect you nailed it: the candles which are designed to burn are not burned, hence there was no fire here. That's consistent with the reports that only the roof burned. The damage below was from falling debris, not fire.

    – TemporalWolf
    7 hours ago













25












25








25


1






After the recent Notre-Dame de Paris fire, there has been a heavily re-posted tweet going around in response to an earlier claim that a golden cross did not melt or deform - due to an act of God.



enter image description here




the Notre Dame Cathedral was a wood fire, and as such could only have reached 600°C, while gold requires 1064°C to melt.




The melting point of gold varies based on purity, and can thus be lower than 1064°C.



However; do wooden buildings, such as the Notre Dame Cathedral, burn at temperatures above 600°C?



I'm obviously not interested in any debate over whether this was an "Act of God" or other unprovable matters.



In terms of personal research, what I have found is that while wood itself will not burn much hotter than 600°C, once it turns to charcoal - it can then reach over 1100°C. However I don't know enough about physics/chemistry or fires, to make a reasonable judgement on how that applies in a real-life fire.










share|improve this question









New contributor




Bilkokuya is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












After the recent Notre-Dame de Paris fire, there has been a heavily re-posted tweet going around in response to an earlier claim that a golden cross did not melt or deform - due to an act of God.



enter image description here




the Notre Dame Cathedral was a wood fire, and as such could only have reached 600°C, while gold requires 1064°C to melt.




The melting point of gold varies based on purity, and can thus be lower than 1064°C.



However; do wooden buildings, such as the Notre Dame Cathedral, burn at temperatures above 600°C?



I'm obviously not interested in any debate over whether this was an "Act of God" or other unprovable matters.



In terms of personal research, what I have found is that while wood itself will not burn much hotter than 600°C, once it turns to charcoal - it can then reach over 1100°C. However I don't know enough about physics/chemistry or fires, to make a reasonable judgement on how that applies in a real-life fire.







physics fire






share|improve this question









New contributor




Bilkokuya is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question









New contributor




Bilkokuya is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 12 hours ago









Oddthinking

102k31427531




102k31427531






New contributor




Bilkokuya is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 12 hours ago









BilkokuyaBilkokuya

23137




23137




New contributor




Bilkokuya is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





Bilkokuya is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






Bilkokuya is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







  • 4





    The question about wood fire temps is valid, but the original Twitter statement with the pic is bogus. Look at many other pics of the damage (e.g. news.sky.com/story/…): the fire never reached that part of the church. Voting to close as not notable.

    – Jan Doggen
    10 hours ago






  • 3





    @JanDoggen: It's kind of ironic that the sky.com article you link contains a passage that echoes the original Twitter post (i.e. that it is notable after all that the cross was not damaged in the fire): "The cross and altar miraculously survived the inferno, which are now regarded as a beacon of hope."

    – Schmuddi
    9 hours ago






  • 10





    Uh, heat rises. The fire was in the attic. What's "notable" (in some sense) is that the inner ceiling (mostly) "held", so that relatively little debris fell into the altar area. Gold is soft, and a falling timber could have easily smashed the cross.

    – Daniel R Hicks
    9 hours ago






  • 32





    Never mind the gold cross, why aren't any of those wax candles melted?

    – plasticinsect
    8 hours ago






  • 18





    @plasticinsect you nailed it: the candles which are designed to burn are not burned, hence there was no fire here. That's consistent with the reports that only the roof burned. The damage below was from falling debris, not fire.

    – TemporalWolf
    7 hours ago












  • 4





    The question about wood fire temps is valid, but the original Twitter statement with the pic is bogus. Look at many other pics of the damage (e.g. news.sky.com/story/…): the fire never reached that part of the church. Voting to close as not notable.

    – Jan Doggen
    10 hours ago






  • 3





    @JanDoggen: It's kind of ironic that the sky.com article you link contains a passage that echoes the original Twitter post (i.e. that it is notable after all that the cross was not damaged in the fire): "The cross and altar miraculously survived the inferno, which are now regarded as a beacon of hope."

    – Schmuddi
    9 hours ago






  • 10





    Uh, heat rises. The fire was in the attic. What's "notable" (in some sense) is that the inner ceiling (mostly) "held", so that relatively little debris fell into the altar area. Gold is soft, and a falling timber could have easily smashed the cross.

    – Daniel R Hicks
    9 hours ago






  • 32





    Never mind the gold cross, why aren't any of those wax candles melted?

    – plasticinsect
    8 hours ago






  • 18





    @plasticinsect you nailed it: the candles which are designed to burn are not burned, hence there was no fire here. That's consistent with the reports that only the roof burned. The damage below was from falling debris, not fire.

    – TemporalWolf
    7 hours ago







4




4





The question about wood fire temps is valid, but the original Twitter statement with the pic is bogus. Look at many other pics of the damage (e.g. news.sky.com/story/…): the fire never reached that part of the church. Voting to close as not notable.

– Jan Doggen
10 hours ago





The question about wood fire temps is valid, but the original Twitter statement with the pic is bogus. Look at many other pics of the damage (e.g. news.sky.com/story/…): the fire never reached that part of the church. Voting to close as not notable.

– Jan Doggen
10 hours ago




3




3





@JanDoggen: It's kind of ironic that the sky.com article you link contains a passage that echoes the original Twitter post (i.e. that it is notable after all that the cross was not damaged in the fire): "The cross and altar miraculously survived the inferno, which are now regarded as a beacon of hope."

– Schmuddi
9 hours ago





@JanDoggen: It's kind of ironic that the sky.com article you link contains a passage that echoes the original Twitter post (i.e. that it is notable after all that the cross was not damaged in the fire): "The cross and altar miraculously survived the inferno, which are now regarded as a beacon of hope."

– Schmuddi
9 hours ago




10




10





Uh, heat rises. The fire was in the attic. What's "notable" (in some sense) is that the inner ceiling (mostly) "held", so that relatively little debris fell into the altar area. Gold is soft, and a falling timber could have easily smashed the cross.

– Daniel R Hicks
9 hours ago





Uh, heat rises. The fire was in the attic. What's "notable" (in some sense) is that the inner ceiling (mostly) "held", so that relatively little debris fell into the altar area. Gold is soft, and a falling timber could have easily smashed the cross.

– Daniel R Hicks
9 hours ago




32




32





Never mind the gold cross, why aren't any of those wax candles melted?

– plasticinsect
8 hours ago





Never mind the gold cross, why aren't any of those wax candles melted?

– plasticinsect
8 hours ago




18




18





@plasticinsect you nailed it: the candles which are designed to burn are not burned, hence there was no fire here. That's consistent with the reports that only the roof burned. The damage below was from falling debris, not fire.

– TemporalWolf
7 hours ago





@plasticinsect you nailed it: the candles which are designed to burn are not burned, hence there was no fire here. That's consistent with the reports that only the roof burned. The damage below was from falling debris, not fire.

– TemporalWolf
7 hours ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















35














Probably yes: According to at least one expert, the temperature in the Notre Dame fire must have been extremely high, and probably exceeded 600°C.



Yesterday the Süddeutsche Zeitung, one of Germany's most reputable newspapers, published an interview with the director of the German Technisches Hilfswerk (the Federal Agency for Technical Relief) and former director of the Fire Departments of Berlin, Albrecht Broemme. The interview covers several aspects of the Notre Dame fire (for example, Broemme explains why using water bombers was out of the question). He also discusses why this was an extraordinarily difficult task for the fire fighters. One reason he mentions is the extreme heat of the flames:




Der Farbe der Flammen nach zu urteilen müssen die Temperaturen bei 800, 900 Grad gelegen haben.




(My translation: "Judging from the color of the flames, temperatures must have been 800 or 900°C.")



Of course, this interview is not a peer-reviewed publication on the temperatures that wood fires can reach. However, based on this expert statement, there is little reason to doubt that a fire such as the Notre Dame fire can be far hotter than the 600°C the Twitter comment mentions. Note of course that his statement does not answer whether the fire was really hot enough to melt the golden altar cross, or whether the choir was actually exposed to this extreme temperature.






share|improve this answer
































    27














    Without acknowledging any of the conditions actually present in the church, wood fires can get much hotter than 600°C.




    The maximum temperatures measured within the pile were of the order of 800, 1000, and 1200 °C for piles composed of 1.27, 2.54, and 9.15 cm sticks respectively, although the maximum temperatures for a given size stick appeared, from all data obtained, to be somewhat dependent upon the structure of the pile. The prescribed temperature-time curve of a standard fire exposure test 1 is also shown in figure 4 from which a general agreement may be noted.
    D Gross: "Experiments on the Burning of Cross Piles of Wood", Journal of Research of the National Bureau of Standards- C. Engineering and Instrumentation Vol. 66C, No.2, April-June 1962. (PDF)




    A nice pile of wood with good ventilation can get apparently really hot:




    Fire plume temperature data suggest a maximum turbulent flame temperature in fully developed compartment fires of about 1500 C for stoichiometric and adiabatic conditions. Experimental results for crib and pool fires are presented to support the trends indicated by the approximate analyses.



    In general, from equations 12 and 13 for stoichiometric conditions, the temperature is given as



    [MATH FORMULA]



    where Tf,ad is the stoichiometric adiabatic flame temperature. Recorded gas temperatures near the ceiling are reported as high as 1350 C [21], and mean temperatures over the peak burning period are 1000 to 1200 C for polyethylene fires [21] and approximately 900 to 1200 C for wood cribs [20]. For turbulent fire plumes, having a radiative loss fraction Xr, a similar formula applies to the combustion region. This turbulent flame (centerline) temperature is given as [18]



    [MATH FORMULA]



    From the best available data [22–24], the turbulent mixing parameter, kT, is found to be approximately 0.5 for cp 1 kJ/kg K. As the fire diameter increases, the radiative fraction falls due to soot blockage [25]. Fig. 4 shows flame temperature data for turbulent plumes as a function of Xr. The extrapolated adiabatic temperature is approximately 1500 C. For a realistic adiabatic flame temperature of 2000 C, the actual turbulent mixing factor is approximately 0.75 or a turbulent dilution factor of 1.5. For a large fire in a compartment with large vents, the core maximum flame temperature should approach the turbulent adiabatic flame temperature.
    James G. Quintiere: "Fire Behavior in Building Compartments", Proceedings of the Combustion Institute, Volume 29, 2002/pp. 181–193. DOI




    But to be very sticklish, the claim is actually somewhat correct. Why?




    enter image description hereenter image description here
    M. J. Spearpoint And J. G. Quintiere: "Predicting the Burning of Wood Using an Integral Model", Combustion And Flame, 123:308–324 (2000). DOI




    Or to put it simply:




    A bonfire can reach temperatures as hot as 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,012 degrees Fahrenheit), which is hot enough to melt some metals.



    Most types of wood will start combusting at about 300 degrees Celsius. The gases burn and increase the temperature of the wood to about 600 degrees Celsius (1,112 degrees Fahrenheit). When the wood has released all its gases, it leaves charcoal and ashes. Charcoal burns at temperatures exceeding 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,012 degrees Fahrenheit).



    Gabriella Munoz: "How Hot Is a Bonfire?", Sciencing, April 26, 2018.




    Wikpedia says




    This is a rough guide to flame temperatures for various common substances (in 20 °C air at 1 atm. pressure):



    Wood 1,027 °C (1880.6 °F)
    Methanol 1,200 °C (2192 °F)
    Charcoal (forced draft) 1,390 °C (2534 °F)



    and gives for adiabatic flame temperature maximum even:




    Wood Air 1980°C 3596°F




    The French authorities seem to have suggested that inside the church 800°C might have been reached:




    Contrairement aux pompiers américains, les sapeurs-pompiers français s’attaquent aux incendies par l’intérieur et non de l’extérieur. Cette tactique est plus dangereuse pour les hommes mais plus efficace pour sauver le patrimoine, observe l’expert Serge Delhaye. Si l’on se concentre sur l’extérieur, on prend le risque de repousser les flammes et les gaz chauds, qui peuvent atteindre 800 degrés, vers l’intérieur et accroître les dégâts. »
    "Six questions sur l’incendie de Notre-Dame de Paris", Le Parisien, Jean-Michel Décugis, Vincent Gautronneau et Jérémie Pham-Lê| 15 avril 2019, 23h40




    Most sources seem to quote a temperature of 1000°C for this incidence, but other sources even go up to 1400°C:




    Fires peak at 1,400°C, explains professor Guillermo Rein, the head of Imperial College London's fire-studying Hazelab.



    Nicole Kobie: "The hot, dangerous physics of fighting the Notre Dame fire", Wire, Tuesday 16 April 2019







    share|improve this answer
































      15














      Wood is a perfectly acceptable and common material used in metal forging even more so when it becomes partially combusted (charcoal). What really determines the heat though, is the amount of oxygen it can get. If there were medium-high winds blowing on the building it could have melted even steel beams.



      Reference: https://youtu.be/x_wYozMBWNk



      In that video you see a forge burning raw wood getting hot enough to make steel white which typically happens around 1200C (reference2: http://www.smex.net.au/reference/SteelColours02.php)






      share|improve this answer










      New contributor




      Jesse_b is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.















      • 9





        Q: "do wooden buildings, such as the Notre Dame Cathedral, burn at temperatures above 600°C?" My Answer: "It's certainly possible". How doesn't it target the question?

        – Jesse_b
        7 hours ago






      • 2





        skeptics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1505/… Maybe this is more helpful. An answer always needs a reference. You can have a look at the answer of LangLangC or target the specific occasion, like answer from Schmuddi

        – Maxim
        7 hours ago






      • 3





        References added

        – Jesse_b
        7 hours ago






      • 3





        Exactly. Virtually every metal forge for thousands of years was wood-fueled. Given fuels have a minimum temperature at which they will combust at a given pressure, but that doesn't mean it's the only temperature at which they will combust.

        – reirab
        6 hours ago






      • 3





        @Maxim How is this not an answer to the question? If anything, I think that it's actually the simplest explanation given so far of why the claim in question is incorrect. In particular, I think that the point about wood fires being used to melt metal all the time is actually really compelling.

        – EJoshuaS
        4 hours ago



















      1














      The entire type of assertion "if X is burning, and X is said to burn at Y temperature, then the fire cannot melt Z which melts at Z temperature" is fundamentally flawed at at least two levels.



      1. The burning point of a material is the usual minimum point where it starts to burn, but not the maximum temperature of a fire involving that material.


      2. The temperature that would apply to a melting point is the temperature of the air in the environment, and as Jesse_b very rightly answered, that temperature is more about air flow, and the overall situation of the space. The amount of burning fuel, amount of air in fire reactions, and the heat and air flow of the entire environment all contribute to how hot that environment gets.






      share|improve this answer






























        4 Answers
        4






        active

        oldest

        votes








        4 Answers
        4






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        35














        Probably yes: According to at least one expert, the temperature in the Notre Dame fire must have been extremely high, and probably exceeded 600°C.



        Yesterday the Süddeutsche Zeitung, one of Germany's most reputable newspapers, published an interview with the director of the German Technisches Hilfswerk (the Federal Agency for Technical Relief) and former director of the Fire Departments of Berlin, Albrecht Broemme. The interview covers several aspects of the Notre Dame fire (for example, Broemme explains why using water bombers was out of the question). He also discusses why this was an extraordinarily difficult task for the fire fighters. One reason he mentions is the extreme heat of the flames:




        Der Farbe der Flammen nach zu urteilen müssen die Temperaturen bei 800, 900 Grad gelegen haben.




        (My translation: "Judging from the color of the flames, temperatures must have been 800 or 900°C.")



        Of course, this interview is not a peer-reviewed publication on the temperatures that wood fires can reach. However, based on this expert statement, there is little reason to doubt that a fire such as the Notre Dame fire can be far hotter than the 600°C the Twitter comment mentions. Note of course that his statement does not answer whether the fire was really hot enough to melt the golden altar cross, or whether the choir was actually exposed to this extreme temperature.






        share|improve this answer





























          35














          Probably yes: According to at least one expert, the temperature in the Notre Dame fire must have been extremely high, and probably exceeded 600°C.



          Yesterday the Süddeutsche Zeitung, one of Germany's most reputable newspapers, published an interview with the director of the German Technisches Hilfswerk (the Federal Agency for Technical Relief) and former director of the Fire Departments of Berlin, Albrecht Broemme. The interview covers several aspects of the Notre Dame fire (for example, Broemme explains why using water bombers was out of the question). He also discusses why this was an extraordinarily difficult task for the fire fighters. One reason he mentions is the extreme heat of the flames:




          Der Farbe der Flammen nach zu urteilen müssen die Temperaturen bei 800, 900 Grad gelegen haben.




          (My translation: "Judging from the color of the flames, temperatures must have been 800 or 900°C.")



          Of course, this interview is not a peer-reviewed publication on the temperatures that wood fires can reach. However, based on this expert statement, there is little reason to doubt that a fire such as the Notre Dame fire can be far hotter than the 600°C the Twitter comment mentions. Note of course that his statement does not answer whether the fire was really hot enough to melt the golden altar cross, or whether the choir was actually exposed to this extreme temperature.






          share|improve this answer



























            35












            35








            35







            Probably yes: According to at least one expert, the temperature in the Notre Dame fire must have been extremely high, and probably exceeded 600°C.



            Yesterday the Süddeutsche Zeitung, one of Germany's most reputable newspapers, published an interview with the director of the German Technisches Hilfswerk (the Federal Agency for Technical Relief) and former director of the Fire Departments of Berlin, Albrecht Broemme. The interview covers several aspects of the Notre Dame fire (for example, Broemme explains why using water bombers was out of the question). He also discusses why this was an extraordinarily difficult task for the fire fighters. One reason he mentions is the extreme heat of the flames:




            Der Farbe der Flammen nach zu urteilen müssen die Temperaturen bei 800, 900 Grad gelegen haben.




            (My translation: "Judging from the color of the flames, temperatures must have been 800 or 900°C.")



            Of course, this interview is not a peer-reviewed publication on the temperatures that wood fires can reach. However, based on this expert statement, there is little reason to doubt that a fire such as the Notre Dame fire can be far hotter than the 600°C the Twitter comment mentions. Note of course that his statement does not answer whether the fire was really hot enough to melt the golden altar cross, or whether the choir was actually exposed to this extreme temperature.






            share|improve this answer















            Probably yes: According to at least one expert, the temperature in the Notre Dame fire must have been extremely high, and probably exceeded 600°C.



            Yesterday the Süddeutsche Zeitung, one of Germany's most reputable newspapers, published an interview with the director of the German Technisches Hilfswerk (the Federal Agency for Technical Relief) and former director of the Fire Departments of Berlin, Albrecht Broemme. The interview covers several aspects of the Notre Dame fire (for example, Broemme explains why using water bombers was out of the question). He also discusses why this was an extraordinarily difficult task for the fire fighters. One reason he mentions is the extreme heat of the flames:




            Der Farbe der Flammen nach zu urteilen müssen die Temperaturen bei 800, 900 Grad gelegen haben.




            (My translation: "Judging from the color of the flames, temperatures must have been 800 or 900°C.")



            Of course, this interview is not a peer-reviewed publication on the temperatures that wood fires can reach. However, based on this expert statement, there is little reason to doubt that a fire such as the Notre Dame fire can be far hotter than the 600°C the Twitter comment mentions. Note of course that his statement does not answer whether the fire was really hot enough to melt the golden altar cross, or whether the choir was actually exposed to this extreme temperature.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 10 hours ago









            Oddthinking

            102k31427531




            102k31427531










            answered 11 hours ago









            SchmuddiSchmuddi

            2,98421524




            2,98421524





















                27














                Without acknowledging any of the conditions actually present in the church, wood fires can get much hotter than 600°C.




                The maximum temperatures measured within the pile were of the order of 800, 1000, and 1200 °C for piles composed of 1.27, 2.54, and 9.15 cm sticks respectively, although the maximum temperatures for a given size stick appeared, from all data obtained, to be somewhat dependent upon the structure of the pile. The prescribed temperature-time curve of a standard fire exposure test 1 is also shown in figure 4 from which a general agreement may be noted.
                D Gross: "Experiments on the Burning of Cross Piles of Wood", Journal of Research of the National Bureau of Standards- C. Engineering and Instrumentation Vol. 66C, No.2, April-June 1962. (PDF)




                A nice pile of wood with good ventilation can get apparently really hot:




                Fire plume temperature data suggest a maximum turbulent flame temperature in fully developed compartment fires of about 1500 C for stoichiometric and adiabatic conditions. Experimental results for crib and pool fires are presented to support the trends indicated by the approximate analyses.



                In general, from equations 12 and 13 for stoichiometric conditions, the temperature is given as



                [MATH FORMULA]



                where Tf,ad is the stoichiometric adiabatic flame temperature. Recorded gas temperatures near the ceiling are reported as high as 1350 C [21], and mean temperatures over the peak burning period are 1000 to 1200 C for polyethylene fires [21] and approximately 900 to 1200 C for wood cribs [20]. For turbulent fire plumes, having a radiative loss fraction Xr, a similar formula applies to the combustion region. This turbulent flame (centerline) temperature is given as [18]



                [MATH FORMULA]



                From the best available data [22–24], the turbulent mixing parameter, kT, is found to be approximately 0.5 for cp 1 kJ/kg K. As the fire diameter increases, the radiative fraction falls due to soot blockage [25]. Fig. 4 shows flame temperature data for turbulent plumes as a function of Xr. The extrapolated adiabatic temperature is approximately 1500 C. For a realistic adiabatic flame temperature of 2000 C, the actual turbulent mixing factor is approximately 0.75 or a turbulent dilution factor of 1.5. For a large fire in a compartment with large vents, the core maximum flame temperature should approach the turbulent adiabatic flame temperature.
                James G. Quintiere: "Fire Behavior in Building Compartments", Proceedings of the Combustion Institute, Volume 29, 2002/pp. 181–193. DOI




                But to be very sticklish, the claim is actually somewhat correct. Why?




                enter image description hereenter image description here
                M. J. Spearpoint And J. G. Quintiere: "Predicting the Burning of Wood Using an Integral Model", Combustion And Flame, 123:308–324 (2000). DOI




                Or to put it simply:




                A bonfire can reach temperatures as hot as 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,012 degrees Fahrenheit), which is hot enough to melt some metals.



                Most types of wood will start combusting at about 300 degrees Celsius. The gases burn and increase the temperature of the wood to about 600 degrees Celsius (1,112 degrees Fahrenheit). When the wood has released all its gases, it leaves charcoal and ashes. Charcoal burns at temperatures exceeding 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,012 degrees Fahrenheit).



                Gabriella Munoz: "How Hot Is a Bonfire?", Sciencing, April 26, 2018.




                Wikpedia says




                This is a rough guide to flame temperatures for various common substances (in 20 °C air at 1 atm. pressure):



                Wood 1,027 °C (1880.6 °F)
                Methanol 1,200 °C (2192 °F)
                Charcoal (forced draft) 1,390 °C (2534 °F)



                and gives for adiabatic flame temperature maximum even:




                Wood Air 1980°C 3596°F




                The French authorities seem to have suggested that inside the church 800°C might have been reached:




                Contrairement aux pompiers américains, les sapeurs-pompiers français s’attaquent aux incendies par l’intérieur et non de l’extérieur. Cette tactique est plus dangereuse pour les hommes mais plus efficace pour sauver le patrimoine, observe l’expert Serge Delhaye. Si l’on se concentre sur l’extérieur, on prend le risque de repousser les flammes et les gaz chauds, qui peuvent atteindre 800 degrés, vers l’intérieur et accroître les dégâts. »
                "Six questions sur l’incendie de Notre-Dame de Paris", Le Parisien, Jean-Michel Décugis, Vincent Gautronneau et Jérémie Pham-Lê| 15 avril 2019, 23h40




                Most sources seem to quote a temperature of 1000°C for this incidence, but other sources even go up to 1400°C:




                Fires peak at 1,400°C, explains professor Guillermo Rein, the head of Imperial College London's fire-studying Hazelab.



                Nicole Kobie: "The hot, dangerous physics of fighting the Notre Dame fire", Wire, Tuesday 16 April 2019







                share|improve this answer





























                  27














                  Without acknowledging any of the conditions actually present in the church, wood fires can get much hotter than 600°C.




                  The maximum temperatures measured within the pile were of the order of 800, 1000, and 1200 °C for piles composed of 1.27, 2.54, and 9.15 cm sticks respectively, although the maximum temperatures for a given size stick appeared, from all data obtained, to be somewhat dependent upon the structure of the pile. The prescribed temperature-time curve of a standard fire exposure test 1 is also shown in figure 4 from which a general agreement may be noted.
                  D Gross: "Experiments on the Burning of Cross Piles of Wood", Journal of Research of the National Bureau of Standards- C. Engineering and Instrumentation Vol. 66C, No.2, April-June 1962. (PDF)




                  A nice pile of wood with good ventilation can get apparently really hot:




                  Fire plume temperature data suggest a maximum turbulent flame temperature in fully developed compartment fires of about 1500 C for stoichiometric and adiabatic conditions. Experimental results for crib and pool fires are presented to support the trends indicated by the approximate analyses.



                  In general, from equations 12 and 13 for stoichiometric conditions, the temperature is given as



                  [MATH FORMULA]



                  where Tf,ad is the stoichiometric adiabatic flame temperature. Recorded gas temperatures near the ceiling are reported as high as 1350 C [21], and mean temperatures over the peak burning period are 1000 to 1200 C for polyethylene fires [21] and approximately 900 to 1200 C for wood cribs [20]. For turbulent fire plumes, having a radiative loss fraction Xr, a similar formula applies to the combustion region. This turbulent flame (centerline) temperature is given as [18]



                  [MATH FORMULA]



                  From the best available data [22–24], the turbulent mixing parameter, kT, is found to be approximately 0.5 for cp 1 kJ/kg K. As the fire diameter increases, the radiative fraction falls due to soot blockage [25]. Fig. 4 shows flame temperature data for turbulent plumes as a function of Xr. The extrapolated adiabatic temperature is approximately 1500 C. For a realistic adiabatic flame temperature of 2000 C, the actual turbulent mixing factor is approximately 0.75 or a turbulent dilution factor of 1.5. For a large fire in a compartment with large vents, the core maximum flame temperature should approach the turbulent adiabatic flame temperature.
                  James G. Quintiere: "Fire Behavior in Building Compartments", Proceedings of the Combustion Institute, Volume 29, 2002/pp. 181–193. DOI




                  But to be very sticklish, the claim is actually somewhat correct. Why?




                  enter image description hereenter image description here
                  M. J. Spearpoint And J. G. Quintiere: "Predicting the Burning of Wood Using an Integral Model", Combustion And Flame, 123:308–324 (2000). DOI




                  Or to put it simply:




                  A bonfire can reach temperatures as hot as 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,012 degrees Fahrenheit), which is hot enough to melt some metals.



                  Most types of wood will start combusting at about 300 degrees Celsius. The gases burn and increase the temperature of the wood to about 600 degrees Celsius (1,112 degrees Fahrenheit). When the wood has released all its gases, it leaves charcoal and ashes. Charcoal burns at temperatures exceeding 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,012 degrees Fahrenheit).



                  Gabriella Munoz: "How Hot Is a Bonfire?", Sciencing, April 26, 2018.




                  Wikpedia says




                  This is a rough guide to flame temperatures for various common substances (in 20 °C air at 1 atm. pressure):



                  Wood 1,027 °C (1880.6 °F)
                  Methanol 1,200 °C (2192 °F)
                  Charcoal (forced draft) 1,390 °C (2534 °F)



                  and gives for adiabatic flame temperature maximum even:




                  Wood Air 1980°C 3596°F




                  The French authorities seem to have suggested that inside the church 800°C might have been reached:




                  Contrairement aux pompiers américains, les sapeurs-pompiers français s’attaquent aux incendies par l’intérieur et non de l’extérieur. Cette tactique est plus dangereuse pour les hommes mais plus efficace pour sauver le patrimoine, observe l’expert Serge Delhaye. Si l’on se concentre sur l’extérieur, on prend le risque de repousser les flammes et les gaz chauds, qui peuvent atteindre 800 degrés, vers l’intérieur et accroître les dégâts. »
                  "Six questions sur l’incendie de Notre-Dame de Paris", Le Parisien, Jean-Michel Décugis, Vincent Gautronneau et Jérémie Pham-Lê| 15 avril 2019, 23h40




                  Most sources seem to quote a temperature of 1000°C for this incidence, but other sources even go up to 1400°C:




                  Fires peak at 1,400°C, explains professor Guillermo Rein, the head of Imperial College London's fire-studying Hazelab.



                  Nicole Kobie: "The hot, dangerous physics of fighting the Notre Dame fire", Wire, Tuesday 16 April 2019







                  share|improve this answer



























                    27












                    27








                    27







                    Without acknowledging any of the conditions actually present in the church, wood fires can get much hotter than 600°C.




                    The maximum temperatures measured within the pile were of the order of 800, 1000, and 1200 °C for piles composed of 1.27, 2.54, and 9.15 cm sticks respectively, although the maximum temperatures for a given size stick appeared, from all data obtained, to be somewhat dependent upon the structure of the pile. The prescribed temperature-time curve of a standard fire exposure test 1 is also shown in figure 4 from which a general agreement may be noted.
                    D Gross: "Experiments on the Burning of Cross Piles of Wood", Journal of Research of the National Bureau of Standards- C. Engineering and Instrumentation Vol. 66C, No.2, April-June 1962. (PDF)




                    A nice pile of wood with good ventilation can get apparently really hot:




                    Fire plume temperature data suggest a maximum turbulent flame temperature in fully developed compartment fires of about 1500 C for stoichiometric and adiabatic conditions. Experimental results for crib and pool fires are presented to support the trends indicated by the approximate analyses.



                    In general, from equations 12 and 13 for stoichiometric conditions, the temperature is given as



                    [MATH FORMULA]



                    where Tf,ad is the stoichiometric adiabatic flame temperature. Recorded gas temperatures near the ceiling are reported as high as 1350 C [21], and mean temperatures over the peak burning period are 1000 to 1200 C for polyethylene fires [21] and approximately 900 to 1200 C for wood cribs [20]. For turbulent fire plumes, having a radiative loss fraction Xr, a similar formula applies to the combustion region. This turbulent flame (centerline) temperature is given as [18]



                    [MATH FORMULA]



                    From the best available data [22–24], the turbulent mixing parameter, kT, is found to be approximately 0.5 for cp 1 kJ/kg K. As the fire diameter increases, the radiative fraction falls due to soot blockage [25]. Fig. 4 shows flame temperature data for turbulent plumes as a function of Xr. The extrapolated adiabatic temperature is approximately 1500 C. For a realistic adiabatic flame temperature of 2000 C, the actual turbulent mixing factor is approximately 0.75 or a turbulent dilution factor of 1.5. For a large fire in a compartment with large vents, the core maximum flame temperature should approach the turbulent adiabatic flame temperature.
                    James G. Quintiere: "Fire Behavior in Building Compartments", Proceedings of the Combustion Institute, Volume 29, 2002/pp. 181–193. DOI




                    But to be very sticklish, the claim is actually somewhat correct. Why?




                    enter image description hereenter image description here
                    M. J. Spearpoint And J. G. Quintiere: "Predicting the Burning of Wood Using an Integral Model", Combustion And Flame, 123:308–324 (2000). DOI




                    Or to put it simply:




                    A bonfire can reach temperatures as hot as 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,012 degrees Fahrenheit), which is hot enough to melt some metals.



                    Most types of wood will start combusting at about 300 degrees Celsius. The gases burn and increase the temperature of the wood to about 600 degrees Celsius (1,112 degrees Fahrenheit). When the wood has released all its gases, it leaves charcoal and ashes. Charcoal burns at temperatures exceeding 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,012 degrees Fahrenheit).



                    Gabriella Munoz: "How Hot Is a Bonfire?", Sciencing, April 26, 2018.




                    Wikpedia says




                    This is a rough guide to flame temperatures for various common substances (in 20 °C air at 1 atm. pressure):



                    Wood 1,027 °C (1880.6 °F)
                    Methanol 1,200 °C (2192 °F)
                    Charcoal (forced draft) 1,390 °C (2534 °F)



                    and gives for adiabatic flame temperature maximum even:




                    Wood Air 1980°C 3596°F




                    The French authorities seem to have suggested that inside the church 800°C might have been reached:




                    Contrairement aux pompiers américains, les sapeurs-pompiers français s’attaquent aux incendies par l’intérieur et non de l’extérieur. Cette tactique est plus dangereuse pour les hommes mais plus efficace pour sauver le patrimoine, observe l’expert Serge Delhaye. Si l’on se concentre sur l’extérieur, on prend le risque de repousser les flammes et les gaz chauds, qui peuvent atteindre 800 degrés, vers l’intérieur et accroître les dégâts. »
                    "Six questions sur l’incendie de Notre-Dame de Paris", Le Parisien, Jean-Michel Décugis, Vincent Gautronneau et Jérémie Pham-Lê| 15 avril 2019, 23h40




                    Most sources seem to quote a temperature of 1000°C for this incidence, but other sources even go up to 1400°C:




                    Fires peak at 1,400°C, explains professor Guillermo Rein, the head of Imperial College London's fire-studying Hazelab.



                    Nicole Kobie: "The hot, dangerous physics of fighting the Notre Dame fire", Wire, Tuesday 16 April 2019







                    share|improve this answer















                    Without acknowledging any of the conditions actually present in the church, wood fires can get much hotter than 600°C.




                    The maximum temperatures measured within the pile were of the order of 800, 1000, and 1200 °C for piles composed of 1.27, 2.54, and 9.15 cm sticks respectively, although the maximum temperatures for a given size stick appeared, from all data obtained, to be somewhat dependent upon the structure of the pile. The prescribed temperature-time curve of a standard fire exposure test 1 is also shown in figure 4 from which a general agreement may be noted.
                    D Gross: "Experiments on the Burning of Cross Piles of Wood", Journal of Research of the National Bureau of Standards- C. Engineering and Instrumentation Vol. 66C, No.2, April-June 1962. (PDF)




                    A nice pile of wood with good ventilation can get apparently really hot:




                    Fire plume temperature data suggest a maximum turbulent flame temperature in fully developed compartment fires of about 1500 C for stoichiometric and adiabatic conditions. Experimental results for crib and pool fires are presented to support the trends indicated by the approximate analyses.



                    In general, from equations 12 and 13 for stoichiometric conditions, the temperature is given as



                    [MATH FORMULA]



                    where Tf,ad is the stoichiometric adiabatic flame temperature. Recorded gas temperatures near the ceiling are reported as high as 1350 C [21], and mean temperatures over the peak burning period are 1000 to 1200 C for polyethylene fires [21] and approximately 900 to 1200 C for wood cribs [20]. For turbulent fire plumes, having a radiative loss fraction Xr, a similar formula applies to the combustion region. This turbulent flame (centerline) temperature is given as [18]



                    [MATH FORMULA]



                    From the best available data [22–24], the turbulent mixing parameter, kT, is found to be approximately 0.5 for cp 1 kJ/kg K. As the fire diameter increases, the radiative fraction falls due to soot blockage [25]. Fig. 4 shows flame temperature data for turbulent plumes as a function of Xr. The extrapolated adiabatic temperature is approximately 1500 C. For a realistic adiabatic flame temperature of 2000 C, the actual turbulent mixing factor is approximately 0.75 or a turbulent dilution factor of 1.5. For a large fire in a compartment with large vents, the core maximum flame temperature should approach the turbulent adiabatic flame temperature.
                    James G. Quintiere: "Fire Behavior in Building Compartments", Proceedings of the Combustion Institute, Volume 29, 2002/pp. 181–193. DOI




                    But to be very sticklish, the claim is actually somewhat correct. Why?




                    enter image description hereenter image description here
                    M. J. Spearpoint And J. G. Quintiere: "Predicting the Burning of Wood Using an Integral Model", Combustion And Flame, 123:308–324 (2000). DOI




                    Or to put it simply:




                    A bonfire can reach temperatures as hot as 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,012 degrees Fahrenheit), which is hot enough to melt some metals.



                    Most types of wood will start combusting at about 300 degrees Celsius. The gases burn and increase the temperature of the wood to about 600 degrees Celsius (1,112 degrees Fahrenheit). When the wood has released all its gases, it leaves charcoal and ashes. Charcoal burns at temperatures exceeding 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,012 degrees Fahrenheit).



                    Gabriella Munoz: "How Hot Is a Bonfire?", Sciencing, April 26, 2018.




                    Wikpedia says




                    This is a rough guide to flame temperatures for various common substances (in 20 °C air at 1 atm. pressure):



                    Wood 1,027 °C (1880.6 °F)
                    Methanol 1,200 °C (2192 °F)
                    Charcoal (forced draft) 1,390 °C (2534 °F)



                    and gives for adiabatic flame temperature maximum even:




                    Wood Air 1980°C 3596°F




                    The French authorities seem to have suggested that inside the church 800°C might have been reached:




                    Contrairement aux pompiers américains, les sapeurs-pompiers français s’attaquent aux incendies par l’intérieur et non de l’extérieur. Cette tactique est plus dangereuse pour les hommes mais plus efficace pour sauver le patrimoine, observe l’expert Serge Delhaye. Si l’on se concentre sur l’extérieur, on prend le risque de repousser les flammes et les gaz chauds, qui peuvent atteindre 800 degrés, vers l’intérieur et accroître les dégâts. »
                    "Six questions sur l’incendie de Notre-Dame de Paris", Le Parisien, Jean-Michel Décugis, Vincent Gautronneau et Jérémie Pham-Lê| 15 avril 2019, 23h40




                    Most sources seem to quote a temperature of 1000°C for this incidence, but other sources even go up to 1400°C:




                    Fires peak at 1,400°C, explains professor Guillermo Rein, the head of Imperial College London's fire-studying Hazelab.



                    Nicole Kobie: "The hot, dangerous physics of fighting the Notre Dame fire", Wire, Tuesday 16 April 2019








                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 6 hours ago

























                    answered 8 hours ago









                    LangLangCLangLangC

                    17.3k47186




                    17.3k47186





















                        15














                        Wood is a perfectly acceptable and common material used in metal forging even more so when it becomes partially combusted (charcoal). What really determines the heat though, is the amount of oxygen it can get. If there were medium-high winds blowing on the building it could have melted even steel beams.



                        Reference: https://youtu.be/x_wYozMBWNk



                        In that video you see a forge burning raw wood getting hot enough to make steel white which typically happens around 1200C (reference2: http://www.smex.net.au/reference/SteelColours02.php)






                        share|improve this answer










                        New contributor




                        Jesse_b is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.















                        • 9





                          Q: "do wooden buildings, such as the Notre Dame Cathedral, burn at temperatures above 600°C?" My Answer: "It's certainly possible". How doesn't it target the question?

                          – Jesse_b
                          7 hours ago






                        • 2





                          skeptics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1505/… Maybe this is more helpful. An answer always needs a reference. You can have a look at the answer of LangLangC or target the specific occasion, like answer from Schmuddi

                          – Maxim
                          7 hours ago






                        • 3





                          References added

                          – Jesse_b
                          7 hours ago






                        • 3





                          Exactly. Virtually every metal forge for thousands of years was wood-fueled. Given fuels have a minimum temperature at which they will combust at a given pressure, but that doesn't mean it's the only temperature at which they will combust.

                          – reirab
                          6 hours ago






                        • 3





                          @Maxim How is this not an answer to the question? If anything, I think that it's actually the simplest explanation given so far of why the claim in question is incorrect. In particular, I think that the point about wood fires being used to melt metal all the time is actually really compelling.

                          – EJoshuaS
                          4 hours ago
















                        15














                        Wood is a perfectly acceptable and common material used in metal forging even more so when it becomes partially combusted (charcoal). What really determines the heat though, is the amount of oxygen it can get. If there were medium-high winds blowing on the building it could have melted even steel beams.



                        Reference: https://youtu.be/x_wYozMBWNk



                        In that video you see a forge burning raw wood getting hot enough to make steel white which typically happens around 1200C (reference2: http://www.smex.net.au/reference/SteelColours02.php)






                        share|improve this answer










                        New contributor




                        Jesse_b is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.















                        • 9





                          Q: "do wooden buildings, such as the Notre Dame Cathedral, burn at temperatures above 600°C?" My Answer: "It's certainly possible". How doesn't it target the question?

                          – Jesse_b
                          7 hours ago






                        • 2





                          skeptics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1505/… Maybe this is more helpful. An answer always needs a reference. You can have a look at the answer of LangLangC or target the specific occasion, like answer from Schmuddi

                          – Maxim
                          7 hours ago






                        • 3





                          References added

                          – Jesse_b
                          7 hours ago






                        • 3





                          Exactly. Virtually every metal forge for thousands of years was wood-fueled. Given fuels have a minimum temperature at which they will combust at a given pressure, but that doesn't mean it's the only temperature at which they will combust.

                          – reirab
                          6 hours ago






                        • 3





                          @Maxim How is this not an answer to the question? If anything, I think that it's actually the simplest explanation given so far of why the claim in question is incorrect. In particular, I think that the point about wood fires being used to melt metal all the time is actually really compelling.

                          – EJoshuaS
                          4 hours ago














                        15












                        15








                        15







                        Wood is a perfectly acceptable and common material used in metal forging even more so when it becomes partially combusted (charcoal). What really determines the heat though, is the amount of oxygen it can get. If there were medium-high winds blowing on the building it could have melted even steel beams.



                        Reference: https://youtu.be/x_wYozMBWNk



                        In that video you see a forge burning raw wood getting hot enough to make steel white which typically happens around 1200C (reference2: http://www.smex.net.au/reference/SteelColours02.php)






                        share|improve this answer










                        New contributor




                        Jesse_b is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.










                        Wood is a perfectly acceptable and common material used in metal forging even more so when it becomes partially combusted (charcoal). What really determines the heat though, is the amount of oxygen it can get. If there were medium-high winds blowing on the building it could have melted even steel beams.



                        Reference: https://youtu.be/x_wYozMBWNk



                        In that video you see a forge burning raw wood getting hot enough to make steel white which typically happens around 1200C (reference2: http://www.smex.net.au/reference/SteelColours02.php)







                        share|improve this answer










                        New contributor




                        Jesse_b is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.









                        share|improve this answer



                        share|improve this answer








                        edited 7 hours ago





















                        New contributor




                        Jesse_b is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.









                        answered 8 hours ago









                        Jesse_bJesse_b

                        2516




                        2516




                        New contributor




                        Jesse_b is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.





                        New contributor





                        Jesse_b is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.






                        Jesse_b is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.







                        • 9





                          Q: "do wooden buildings, such as the Notre Dame Cathedral, burn at temperatures above 600°C?" My Answer: "It's certainly possible". How doesn't it target the question?

                          – Jesse_b
                          7 hours ago






                        • 2





                          skeptics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1505/… Maybe this is more helpful. An answer always needs a reference. You can have a look at the answer of LangLangC or target the specific occasion, like answer from Schmuddi

                          – Maxim
                          7 hours ago






                        • 3





                          References added

                          – Jesse_b
                          7 hours ago






                        • 3





                          Exactly. Virtually every metal forge for thousands of years was wood-fueled. Given fuels have a minimum temperature at which they will combust at a given pressure, but that doesn't mean it's the only temperature at which they will combust.

                          – reirab
                          6 hours ago






                        • 3





                          @Maxim How is this not an answer to the question? If anything, I think that it's actually the simplest explanation given so far of why the claim in question is incorrect. In particular, I think that the point about wood fires being used to melt metal all the time is actually really compelling.

                          – EJoshuaS
                          4 hours ago













                        • 9





                          Q: "do wooden buildings, such as the Notre Dame Cathedral, burn at temperatures above 600°C?" My Answer: "It's certainly possible". How doesn't it target the question?

                          – Jesse_b
                          7 hours ago






                        • 2





                          skeptics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1505/… Maybe this is more helpful. An answer always needs a reference. You can have a look at the answer of LangLangC or target the specific occasion, like answer from Schmuddi

                          – Maxim
                          7 hours ago






                        • 3





                          References added

                          – Jesse_b
                          7 hours ago






                        • 3





                          Exactly. Virtually every metal forge for thousands of years was wood-fueled. Given fuels have a minimum temperature at which they will combust at a given pressure, but that doesn't mean it's the only temperature at which they will combust.

                          – reirab
                          6 hours ago






                        • 3





                          @Maxim How is this not an answer to the question? If anything, I think that it's actually the simplest explanation given so far of why the claim in question is incorrect. In particular, I think that the point about wood fires being used to melt metal all the time is actually really compelling.

                          – EJoshuaS
                          4 hours ago








                        9




                        9





                        Q: "do wooden buildings, such as the Notre Dame Cathedral, burn at temperatures above 600°C?" My Answer: "It's certainly possible". How doesn't it target the question?

                        – Jesse_b
                        7 hours ago





                        Q: "do wooden buildings, such as the Notre Dame Cathedral, burn at temperatures above 600°C?" My Answer: "It's certainly possible". How doesn't it target the question?

                        – Jesse_b
                        7 hours ago




                        2




                        2





                        skeptics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1505/… Maybe this is more helpful. An answer always needs a reference. You can have a look at the answer of LangLangC or target the specific occasion, like answer from Schmuddi

                        – Maxim
                        7 hours ago





                        skeptics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1505/… Maybe this is more helpful. An answer always needs a reference. You can have a look at the answer of LangLangC or target the specific occasion, like answer from Schmuddi

                        – Maxim
                        7 hours ago




                        3




                        3





                        References added

                        – Jesse_b
                        7 hours ago





                        References added

                        – Jesse_b
                        7 hours ago




                        3




                        3





                        Exactly. Virtually every metal forge for thousands of years was wood-fueled. Given fuels have a minimum temperature at which they will combust at a given pressure, but that doesn't mean it's the only temperature at which they will combust.

                        – reirab
                        6 hours ago





                        Exactly. Virtually every metal forge for thousands of years was wood-fueled. Given fuels have a minimum temperature at which they will combust at a given pressure, but that doesn't mean it's the only temperature at which they will combust.

                        – reirab
                        6 hours ago




                        3




                        3





                        @Maxim How is this not an answer to the question? If anything, I think that it's actually the simplest explanation given so far of why the claim in question is incorrect. In particular, I think that the point about wood fires being used to melt metal all the time is actually really compelling.

                        – EJoshuaS
                        4 hours ago






                        @Maxim How is this not an answer to the question? If anything, I think that it's actually the simplest explanation given so far of why the claim in question is incorrect. In particular, I think that the point about wood fires being used to melt metal all the time is actually really compelling.

                        – EJoshuaS
                        4 hours ago












                        1














                        The entire type of assertion "if X is burning, and X is said to burn at Y temperature, then the fire cannot melt Z which melts at Z temperature" is fundamentally flawed at at least two levels.



                        1. The burning point of a material is the usual minimum point where it starts to burn, but not the maximum temperature of a fire involving that material.


                        2. The temperature that would apply to a melting point is the temperature of the air in the environment, and as Jesse_b very rightly answered, that temperature is more about air flow, and the overall situation of the space. The amount of burning fuel, amount of air in fire reactions, and the heat and air flow of the entire environment all contribute to how hot that environment gets.






                        share|improve this answer



























                          1














                          The entire type of assertion "if X is burning, and X is said to burn at Y temperature, then the fire cannot melt Z which melts at Z temperature" is fundamentally flawed at at least two levels.



                          1. The burning point of a material is the usual minimum point where it starts to burn, but not the maximum temperature of a fire involving that material.


                          2. The temperature that would apply to a melting point is the temperature of the air in the environment, and as Jesse_b very rightly answered, that temperature is more about air flow, and the overall situation of the space. The amount of burning fuel, amount of air in fire reactions, and the heat and air flow of the entire environment all contribute to how hot that environment gets.






                          share|improve this answer

























                            1












                            1








                            1







                            The entire type of assertion "if X is burning, and X is said to burn at Y temperature, then the fire cannot melt Z which melts at Z temperature" is fundamentally flawed at at least two levels.



                            1. The burning point of a material is the usual minimum point where it starts to burn, but not the maximum temperature of a fire involving that material.


                            2. The temperature that would apply to a melting point is the temperature of the air in the environment, and as Jesse_b very rightly answered, that temperature is more about air flow, and the overall situation of the space. The amount of burning fuel, amount of air in fire reactions, and the heat and air flow of the entire environment all contribute to how hot that environment gets.






                            share|improve this answer













                            The entire type of assertion "if X is burning, and X is said to burn at Y temperature, then the fire cannot melt Z which melts at Z temperature" is fundamentally flawed at at least two levels.



                            1. The burning point of a material is the usual minimum point where it starts to burn, but not the maximum temperature of a fire involving that material.


                            2. The temperature that would apply to a melting point is the temperature of the air in the environment, and as Jesse_b very rightly answered, that temperature is more about air flow, and the overall situation of the space. The amount of burning fuel, amount of air in fire reactions, and the heat and air flow of the entire environment all contribute to how hot that environment gets.







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 1 hour ago









                            DronzDronz

                            1208




                            1208













                                -fire, physics

                                Popular posts from this blog

                                Creating 100m^2 grid automatically using QGIS?Creating grid constrained within polygon in QGIS?Createing polygon layer from point data using QGIS?Creating vector grid using QGIS?Creating grid polygons from coordinates using R or PythonCreating grid from spatio temporal point data?Creating fields in attributes table using other layers using QGISCreate .shp vector grid in QGISQGIS Creating 4km point grid within polygonsCreate a vector grid over a raster layerVector Grid Creates just one grid

                                What is this called? Old film camera viewer?What makes a good film camera?What to do with an old film camera?What should one look for when buying a used film camera?What is the value and age of this pre-1967 Ricoh 35 mm camera?DSLR recommendation, question about old Canon 35mm film Camera & lensesCan anyone identify the silver rangefinder-style camera in this advertisement?What kind of a Polaroid 600-camera is this?Will an old film camera still work even when not used in a very long time?What is this camera / Can I develop the film?How to fit an action camera into antique (bellows) housing?What to check when buying used and old film bodies?

                                Why is this plane circling around the Lucknow airport every day?Why do aircraft on Flight Radar 24 jump around randomly sometimes?What airport has this walkway over a taxiway?How does Chicago O'Hare's tower sequence aircraft at peak capacity?Which airport is featured in this Delta commercial?After a crash, for how long is the airport closed?Can a passenger plane stand still in the air, or hover at a fixed location above a ground?What are those trucks towing around, and why?What is this airport outside of Cairo, Egypt?Which US airport has the lowest circling MDH?What is this airport video?