Alternate inner products on Euclidean space? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)$|x -y|+|y-z|=|x-z|$ implies $y= a x + b z$ where $a +b =1$Complex inner product aren't inner products.Inequivalent norms (given by different inner products) on infinite dimensional Hilbert space.Is it possible to define an inner product to an arbitrary field?Bilinear, symmetric function $f(mathbf x, mathbf y)$ defines an inner productDot Product vs Inner ProductUniqueness (or not) of an inner product on some vector spaceIncidence algebras and dot productsHow to prove that the matrix of a symmetric bilinear form is symmetricCompatibility of cross and inner product on $mathbbR^3$

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Alternate inner products on Euclidean space?



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)$|x -y|+|y-z|=|x-z|$ implies $y= a x + b z$ where $a +b =1$Complex inner product aren't inner products.Inequivalent norms (given by different inner products) on infinite dimensional Hilbert space.Is it possible to define an inner product to an arbitrary field?Bilinear, symmetric function $f(mathbf x, mathbf y)$ defines an inner productDot Product vs Inner ProductUniqueness (or not) of an inner product on some vector spaceIncidence algebras and dot productsHow to prove that the matrix of a symmetric bilinear form is symmetricCompatibility of cross and inner product on $mathbbR^3$










3












$begingroup$


After reading about inner products as a generalization of the dot product, I was hoping to be able to prove that the dot product is in some sense the unique inner product in Euclidean space (e.g., up to constant scaling).



But it seems that there are a whole bunch of alternative inner products in $mathbbR^2$ with nonzero cross-terms between basis vectors, for example, $langle (a, b)^intercal, (x, y)^intercal rangle = ax + by + 0.5(ay + bx)$. Unless I've made a mistake, this satisfies symmetry, linearity, and positive-definiteness.



Is there a sense in which the dot product is the canonical inner product on Euclidean space? Or do we just pick it because the implied norm matches our notion of distance?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




rampatowl is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Not quite what you're asking - but we do know that any two inner products on a finite-dimensional vector space are equivalent, which means there are positive constants $c, C$ such that $c langle x, y rangle_1 le langle x, y rangle_2 le C langle x, y rangle_2$ for all $x,y$. So although the inner product is not unique, at least any two are within a constant scaling factor of each other. (This fact is most useful when studying a topology induced by the inner product - it means the corresponding topology doesn't depend on the choice of inner product.)
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    13 hours ago
















3












$begingroup$


After reading about inner products as a generalization of the dot product, I was hoping to be able to prove that the dot product is in some sense the unique inner product in Euclidean space (e.g., up to constant scaling).



But it seems that there are a whole bunch of alternative inner products in $mathbbR^2$ with nonzero cross-terms between basis vectors, for example, $langle (a, b)^intercal, (x, y)^intercal rangle = ax + by + 0.5(ay + bx)$. Unless I've made a mistake, this satisfies symmetry, linearity, and positive-definiteness.



Is there a sense in which the dot product is the canonical inner product on Euclidean space? Or do we just pick it because the implied norm matches our notion of distance?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




rampatowl is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Not quite what you're asking - but we do know that any two inner products on a finite-dimensional vector space are equivalent, which means there are positive constants $c, C$ such that $c langle x, y rangle_1 le langle x, y rangle_2 le C langle x, y rangle_2$ for all $x,y$. So although the inner product is not unique, at least any two are within a constant scaling factor of each other. (This fact is most useful when studying a topology induced by the inner product - it means the corresponding topology doesn't depend on the choice of inner product.)
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    13 hours ago














3












3








3


1



$begingroup$


After reading about inner products as a generalization of the dot product, I was hoping to be able to prove that the dot product is in some sense the unique inner product in Euclidean space (e.g., up to constant scaling).



But it seems that there are a whole bunch of alternative inner products in $mathbbR^2$ with nonzero cross-terms between basis vectors, for example, $langle (a, b)^intercal, (x, y)^intercal rangle = ax + by + 0.5(ay + bx)$. Unless I've made a mistake, this satisfies symmetry, linearity, and positive-definiteness.



Is there a sense in which the dot product is the canonical inner product on Euclidean space? Or do we just pick it because the implied norm matches our notion of distance?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




rampatowl is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$




After reading about inner products as a generalization of the dot product, I was hoping to be able to prove that the dot product is in some sense the unique inner product in Euclidean space (e.g., up to constant scaling).



But it seems that there are a whole bunch of alternative inner products in $mathbbR^2$ with nonzero cross-terms between basis vectors, for example, $langle (a, b)^intercal, (x, y)^intercal rangle = ax + by + 0.5(ay + bx)$. Unless I've made a mistake, this satisfies symmetry, linearity, and positive-definiteness.



Is there a sense in which the dot product is the canonical inner product on Euclidean space? Or do we just pick it because the implied norm matches our notion of distance?







linear-algebra inner-product-space






share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




rampatowl is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




rampatowl is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 14 hours ago









Björn Friedrich

2,70661831




2,70661831






New contributor




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asked 14 hours ago









rampatowlrampatowl

1162




1162




New contributor




rampatowl is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





rampatowl is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






rampatowl is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Not quite what you're asking - but we do know that any two inner products on a finite-dimensional vector space are equivalent, which means there are positive constants $c, C$ such that $c langle x, y rangle_1 le langle x, y rangle_2 le C langle x, y rangle_2$ for all $x,y$. So although the inner product is not unique, at least any two are within a constant scaling factor of each other. (This fact is most useful when studying a topology induced by the inner product - it means the corresponding topology doesn't depend on the choice of inner product.)
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    13 hours ago













  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Not quite what you're asking - but we do know that any two inner products on a finite-dimensional vector space are equivalent, which means there are positive constants $c, C$ such that $c langle x, y rangle_1 le langle x, y rangle_2 le C langle x, y rangle_2$ for all $x,y$. So although the inner product is not unique, at least any two are within a constant scaling factor of each other. (This fact is most useful when studying a topology induced by the inner product - it means the corresponding topology doesn't depend on the choice of inner product.)
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    13 hours ago








1




1




$begingroup$
Not quite what you're asking - but we do know that any two inner products on a finite-dimensional vector space are equivalent, which means there are positive constants $c, C$ such that $c langle x, y rangle_1 le langle x, y rangle_2 le C langle x, y rangle_2$ for all $x,y$. So although the inner product is not unique, at least any two are within a constant scaling factor of each other. (This fact is most useful when studying a topology induced by the inner product - it means the corresponding topology doesn't depend on the choice of inner product.)
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
13 hours ago





$begingroup$
Not quite what you're asking - but we do know that any two inner products on a finite-dimensional vector space are equivalent, which means there are positive constants $c, C$ such that $c langle x, y rangle_1 le langle x, y rangle_2 le C langle x, y rangle_2$ for all $x,y$. So although the inner product is not unique, at least any two are within a constant scaling factor of each other. (This fact is most useful when studying a topology induced by the inner product - it means the corresponding topology doesn't depend on the choice of inner product.)
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
13 hours ago











3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















3












$begingroup$

Any inner product is dot product in some basis. For example, your inner product is standard dot product written in basis $left(e_1, frac12e_1 + fracsqrt32e_2right)$.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    No it's not. $e_2 = (-1,2)/sqrt3$ in that basis, which has euclidean norm 5/3. But $left<e_2,e_2right> = 1$.
    $endgroup$
    – eyeballfrog
    11 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Using author's inner product we have $langle (-1, 2) / sqrt3, (-1, 2) / sqrt3rangle = 1$. And in general - if we write two vectors in this basis and take inner product as defined in question, we get their standard dot product.
    $endgroup$
    – mihaild
    10 hours ago


















2












$begingroup$

There is nothing special about the dot product. Yes, it corresponds to the Euclidean norm if you are using an orthonormal basis. But if your basis is not orthonormal then the Euclidean norm will be represented by some other symmetric matrix.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    1












    $begingroup$

    For an arbitrary inner product $left<right>$ on $mathbb R^n$, there is a positive definite real symmetric matrix $A_ij = left<e_i|e_jright>$ that defines the transform. Since it is real and symmetric, it is orthogonally diagonalizable. That is, for any inner product on $mathbb R^n$, there is a set of real numbers $lambda_j$ and an orthonormal basis $left|xi_jright>$ such that
    $$
    left<a|bright> = sum_jlambda_jleft<a|xi_jright>left<xi_j|bright>
    $$

    Roughly speaking, the inner product resolves $a$ and $b$ into their $xi_j$ components, then weights the resulting dot product by $lambda_j$.



    In general, this choice of $left|xi_jright>$ will be unique. However, for some inner products, there will be multiple possible choices of $left|xi_jright>$. The Euclidean norm is unique (up to a constant scaling) in that every choice of $left|xi_jright>$ allows the inner product to be written in that form--it is independent of the chosen basis.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













      Your Answer








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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      3












      $begingroup$

      Any inner product is dot product in some basis. For example, your inner product is standard dot product written in basis $left(e_1, frac12e_1 + fracsqrt32e_2right)$.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        No it's not. $e_2 = (-1,2)/sqrt3$ in that basis, which has euclidean norm 5/3. But $left<e_2,e_2right> = 1$.
        $endgroup$
        – eyeballfrog
        11 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        Using author's inner product we have $langle (-1, 2) / sqrt3, (-1, 2) / sqrt3rangle = 1$. And in general - if we write two vectors in this basis and take inner product as defined in question, we get their standard dot product.
        $endgroup$
        – mihaild
        10 hours ago















      3












      $begingroup$

      Any inner product is dot product in some basis. For example, your inner product is standard dot product written in basis $left(e_1, frac12e_1 + fracsqrt32e_2right)$.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        No it's not. $e_2 = (-1,2)/sqrt3$ in that basis, which has euclidean norm 5/3. But $left<e_2,e_2right> = 1$.
        $endgroup$
        – eyeballfrog
        11 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        Using author's inner product we have $langle (-1, 2) / sqrt3, (-1, 2) / sqrt3rangle = 1$. And in general - if we write two vectors in this basis and take inner product as defined in question, we get their standard dot product.
        $endgroup$
        – mihaild
        10 hours ago













      3












      3








      3





      $begingroup$

      Any inner product is dot product in some basis. For example, your inner product is standard dot product written in basis $left(e_1, frac12e_1 + fracsqrt32e_2right)$.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      Any inner product is dot product in some basis. For example, your inner product is standard dot product written in basis $left(e_1, frac12e_1 + fracsqrt32e_2right)$.







      share|cite|improve this answer












      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer










      answered 14 hours ago









      mihaildmihaild

      1,03211




      1,03211











      • $begingroup$
        No it's not. $e_2 = (-1,2)/sqrt3$ in that basis, which has euclidean norm 5/3. But $left<e_2,e_2right> = 1$.
        $endgroup$
        – eyeballfrog
        11 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        Using author's inner product we have $langle (-1, 2) / sqrt3, (-1, 2) / sqrt3rangle = 1$. And in general - if we write two vectors in this basis and take inner product as defined in question, we get their standard dot product.
        $endgroup$
        – mihaild
        10 hours ago
















      • $begingroup$
        No it's not. $e_2 = (-1,2)/sqrt3$ in that basis, which has euclidean norm 5/3. But $left<e_2,e_2right> = 1$.
        $endgroup$
        – eyeballfrog
        11 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        Using author's inner product we have $langle (-1, 2) / sqrt3, (-1, 2) / sqrt3rangle = 1$. And in general - if we write two vectors in this basis and take inner product as defined in question, we get their standard dot product.
        $endgroup$
        – mihaild
        10 hours ago















      $begingroup$
      No it's not. $e_2 = (-1,2)/sqrt3$ in that basis, which has euclidean norm 5/3. But $left<e_2,e_2right> = 1$.
      $endgroup$
      – eyeballfrog
      11 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      No it's not. $e_2 = (-1,2)/sqrt3$ in that basis, which has euclidean norm 5/3. But $left<e_2,e_2right> = 1$.
      $endgroup$
      – eyeballfrog
      11 hours ago












      $begingroup$
      Using author's inner product we have $langle (-1, 2) / sqrt3, (-1, 2) / sqrt3rangle = 1$. And in general - if we write two vectors in this basis and take inner product as defined in question, we get their standard dot product.
      $endgroup$
      – mihaild
      10 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      Using author's inner product we have $langle (-1, 2) / sqrt3, (-1, 2) / sqrt3rangle = 1$. And in general - if we write two vectors in this basis and take inner product as defined in question, we get their standard dot product.
      $endgroup$
      – mihaild
      10 hours ago











      2












      $begingroup$

      There is nothing special about the dot product. Yes, it corresponds to the Euclidean norm if you are using an orthonormal basis. But if your basis is not orthonormal then the Euclidean norm will be represented by some other symmetric matrix.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$

















        2












        $begingroup$

        There is nothing special about the dot product. Yes, it corresponds to the Euclidean norm if you are using an orthonormal basis. But if your basis is not orthonormal then the Euclidean norm will be represented by some other symmetric matrix.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$















          2












          2








          2





          $begingroup$

          There is nothing special about the dot product. Yes, it corresponds to the Euclidean norm if you are using an orthonormal basis. But if your basis is not orthonormal then the Euclidean norm will be represented by some other symmetric matrix.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          There is nothing special about the dot product. Yes, it corresponds to the Euclidean norm if you are using an orthonormal basis. But if your basis is not orthonormal then the Euclidean norm will be represented by some other symmetric matrix.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered 14 hours ago









          gandalf61gandalf61

          9,293825




          9,293825





















              1












              $begingroup$

              For an arbitrary inner product $left<right>$ on $mathbb R^n$, there is a positive definite real symmetric matrix $A_ij = left<e_i|e_jright>$ that defines the transform. Since it is real and symmetric, it is orthogonally diagonalizable. That is, for any inner product on $mathbb R^n$, there is a set of real numbers $lambda_j$ and an orthonormal basis $left|xi_jright>$ such that
              $$
              left<a|bright> = sum_jlambda_jleft<a|xi_jright>left<xi_j|bright>
              $$

              Roughly speaking, the inner product resolves $a$ and $b$ into their $xi_j$ components, then weights the resulting dot product by $lambda_j$.



              In general, this choice of $left|xi_jright>$ will be unique. However, for some inner products, there will be multiple possible choices of $left|xi_jright>$. The Euclidean norm is unique (up to a constant scaling) in that every choice of $left|xi_jright>$ allows the inner product to be written in that form--it is independent of the chosen basis.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$

















                1












                $begingroup$

                For an arbitrary inner product $left<right>$ on $mathbb R^n$, there is a positive definite real symmetric matrix $A_ij = left<e_i|e_jright>$ that defines the transform. Since it is real and symmetric, it is orthogonally diagonalizable. That is, for any inner product on $mathbb R^n$, there is a set of real numbers $lambda_j$ and an orthonormal basis $left|xi_jright>$ such that
                $$
                left<a|bright> = sum_jlambda_jleft<a|xi_jright>left<xi_j|bright>
                $$

                Roughly speaking, the inner product resolves $a$ and $b$ into their $xi_j$ components, then weights the resulting dot product by $lambda_j$.



                In general, this choice of $left|xi_jright>$ will be unique. However, for some inner products, there will be multiple possible choices of $left|xi_jright>$. The Euclidean norm is unique (up to a constant scaling) in that every choice of $left|xi_jright>$ allows the inner product to be written in that form--it is independent of the chosen basis.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$















                  1












                  1








                  1





                  $begingroup$

                  For an arbitrary inner product $left<right>$ on $mathbb R^n$, there is a positive definite real symmetric matrix $A_ij = left<e_i|e_jright>$ that defines the transform. Since it is real and symmetric, it is orthogonally diagonalizable. That is, for any inner product on $mathbb R^n$, there is a set of real numbers $lambda_j$ and an orthonormal basis $left|xi_jright>$ such that
                  $$
                  left<a|bright> = sum_jlambda_jleft<a|xi_jright>left<xi_j|bright>
                  $$

                  Roughly speaking, the inner product resolves $a$ and $b$ into their $xi_j$ components, then weights the resulting dot product by $lambda_j$.



                  In general, this choice of $left|xi_jright>$ will be unique. However, for some inner products, there will be multiple possible choices of $left|xi_jright>$. The Euclidean norm is unique (up to a constant scaling) in that every choice of $left|xi_jright>$ allows the inner product to be written in that form--it is independent of the chosen basis.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  For an arbitrary inner product $left<right>$ on $mathbb R^n$, there is a positive definite real symmetric matrix $A_ij = left<e_i|e_jright>$ that defines the transform. Since it is real and symmetric, it is orthogonally diagonalizable. That is, for any inner product on $mathbb R^n$, there is a set of real numbers $lambda_j$ and an orthonormal basis $left|xi_jright>$ such that
                  $$
                  left<a|bright> = sum_jlambda_jleft<a|xi_jright>left<xi_j|bright>
                  $$

                  Roughly speaking, the inner product resolves $a$ and $b$ into their $xi_j$ components, then weights the resulting dot product by $lambda_j$.



                  In general, this choice of $left|xi_jright>$ will be unique. However, for some inner products, there will be multiple possible choices of $left|xi_jright>$. The Euclidean norm is unique (up to a constant scaling) in that every choice of $left|xi_jright>$ allows the inner product to be written in that form--it is independent of the chosen basis.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered 11 hours ago









                  eyeballfrogeyeballfrog

                  7,222633




                  7,222633




















                      rampatowl is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









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