When a wind turbine does not produce enough electricity how does the power company compensate for the loss?How precise is the frequency of the AC electricity network?How exactly does the grid handle small deviations in power consumption?How do I, as a consumer, gain or lose when the utility company line voltage varies from rated value?Does using “High Leg Delta” 3-phase electricity require a different equation for calculating Amperage/Power?Can I use offline UPS for a PC? Will the delay affect my PC if it is running when the power goes out?How is electricity from a power station added to the grid?Why does a wind turbine deliver reactive power to the grid during no winds or when turbine is stopped?Why maximum power transfer condition is suitable for communication system but not for transmission of electricity?

Outlet with 3 sets of wires

How do we create new idioms and use them in a novel?

From an axiomatic set theoric approach why can we take uncountable unions?

When a wind turbine does not produce enough electricity how does the power company compensate for the loss?

Can the alpha, lambda values of a glmnet object output determine whether ridge or Lasso?

Virginia employer terminated employee and wants signing bonus returned

Are all players supposed to be able to see each others' character sheets?

How exactly does an Ethernet collision happen in the cable, since nodes use different circuits for Tx and Rx?

Vocabulary for giving just numbers, not a full answer

I reported the illegal activity of my boss to his boss. My boss found out. Now I am being punished. What should I do?

(Codewars) Linked Lists - Remove Duplicates

What would be the most expensive material to an intergalactic society?

Why do phishing e-mails use faked e-mail addresses instead of the real one?

Is it possible that a question has only two answers?

Is it a Cyclops number? "Nobody" knows!

Professor forcing me to attend a conference, I can't afford even with 50% funding

Should I take out a loan for a friend to invest on my behalf?

Recommendation letter by significant other if you worked with them professionally?

Does a difference of tense count as a difference of meaning in a minimal pair?

Can one live in the U.S. and not use a credit card?

Can we track matter through time by looking at different depths in space?

Doesn't allowing a user mode program to access kernel space memory and execute the IN and OUT instructions defeat the purpose of having CPU modes?

Is it possible to find 2014 distinct positive integers whose sum is divisible by each of them?

Why do we say ‘pairwise disjoint’, rather than ‘disjoint’?



When a wind turbine does not produce enough electricity how does the power company compensate for the loss?


How precise is the frequency of the AC electricity network?How exactly does the grid handle small deviations in power consumption?How do I, as a consumer, gain or lose when the utility company line voltage varies from rated value?Does using “High Leg Delta” 3-phase electricity require a different equation for calculating Amperage/Power?Can I use offline UPS for a PC? Will the delay affect my PC if it is running when the power goes out?How is electricity from a power station added to the grid?Why does a wind turbine deliver reactive power to the grid during no winds or when turbine is stopped?Why maximum power transfer condition is suitable for communication system but not for transmission of electricity?













2












$begingroup$


I heard once that when a wind turbine power plant doesn't produce enough electricity the power company's are sometimes forced to turn on a couple of jet engines in order to compensate for the loss, is there any truth to that? I imagine stability is a key factor in keeping the production static and efficient, so what would the power company do?










share|improve this question







New contributor




Rob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    "Peaker plants" and "load following plants" (see Andrey Akhmetov's answer, below) would exist even if wind turbines had never been invented. They're needed to match the on-line generating capacity to the demand for electric power, and the demand can change just as quickly as the wind can change.
    $endgroup$
    – Solomon Slow
    1 hour ago
















2












$begingroup$


I heard once that when a wind turbine power plant doesn't produce enough electricity the power company's are sometimes forced to turn on a couple of jet engines in order to compensate for the loss, is there any truth to that? I imagine stability is a key factor in keeping the production static and efficient, so what would the power company do?










share|improve this question







New contributor




Rob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    "Peaker plants" and "load following plants" (see Andrey Akhmetov's answer, below) would exist even if wind turbines had never been invented. They're needed to match the on-line generating capacity to the demand for electric power, and the demand can change just as quickly as the wind can change.
    $endgroup$
    – Solomon Slow
    1 hour ago














2












2








2


1



$begingroup$


I heard once that when a wind turbine power plant doesn't produce enough electricity the power company's are sometimes forced to turn on a couple of jet engines in order to compensate for the loss, is there any truth to that? I imagine stability is a key factor in keeping the production static and efficient, so what would the power company do?










share|improve this question







New contributor




Rob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$




I heard once that when a wind turbine power plant doesn't produce enough electricity the power company's are sometimes forced to turn on a couple of jet engines in order to compensate for the loss, is there any truth to that? I imagine stability is a key factor in keeping the production static and efficient, so what would the power company do?







power-engineering power-grid






share|improve this question







New contributor




Rob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question







New contributor




Rob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question






New contributor




Rob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 2 hours ago









RobRob

1164




1164




New contributor




Rob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





Rob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






Rob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    "Peaker plants" and "load following plants" (see Andrey Akhmetov's answer, below) would exist even if wind turbines had never been invented. They're needed to match the on-line generating capacity to the demand for electric power, and the demand can change just as quickly as the wind can change.
    $endgroup$
    – Solomon Slow
    1 hour ago













  • 1




    $begingroup$
    "Peaker plants" and "load following plants" (see Andrey Akhmetov's answer, below) would exist even if wind turbines had never been invented. They're needed to match the on-line generating capacity to the demand for electric power, and the demand can change just as quickly as the wind can change.
    $endgroup$
    – Solomon Slow
    1 hour ago








1




1




$begingroup$
"Peaker plants" and "load following plants" (see Andrey Akhmetov's answer, below) would exist even if wind turbines had never been invented. They're needed to match the on-line generating capacity to the demand for electric power, and the demand can change just as quickly as the wind can change.
$endgroup$
– Solomon Slow
1 hour ago





$begingroup$
"Peaker plants" and "load following plants" (see Andrey Akhmetov's answer, below) would exist even if wind turbines had never been invented. They're needed to match the on-line generating capacity to the demand for electric power, and the demand can change just as quickly as the wind can change.
$endgroup$
– Solomon Slow
1 hour ago











2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















8












$begingroup$

This is correct. When the demand exceeds supply, voltage will sag and frequency will drop (which can risk equipment failure and is certainly an undesirable situation). The operators of power grids will turn on alternative sources of generation in order to correct the imbalance as soon as it is noticed (often under the coordination of a regional transmission organization such as CAISO).



Grid operators are very careful to ensure that the grid frequency is properly maintained (source); even a few seconds of drift (i.e. a few hundred cycles ahead or behind) require RTOs and related agencies to take corrective action where safe. Most of these measures work the same whether demand increases or supply decreases (and thus are relevant whether we are speaking about an increase in consumer load or a decrease in supply from wind or other renewable sources).



In order to understand the mix of energy a bit more thoroughly, it's necessary to take into account the types of generation, which include base-load plants, load-following plants, intermittent sources, and peaker plants:



  • Base-load plants are designed to operate at high cost efficiency (not necessarily environmental efficiency or any other measure of efficiency, unless dictated by local laws and priorities), but cannot be adjusted quickly. Examples of these may include large coal and nuclear base load.

  • Load-following plants can adjust if they have capacity (e.g. hydroelectric or smaller fuel-burning plants)

  • Peaker plants are agile and can be brought online quickly (e.g. gas turbines), but are inefficient. When the base-load plants are insufficient, load-following plants increase their load; if this capacity is exhausted or the grid is experiencing rapid swings in load that the load-following plants cannot keep up with, then peakers will come online and begin burning fuel to achieve enough supply to balance the demand.

Another factor to consider is planning: If an area has consistent winds and enough wind turbines, the wind can be considered part of base-load: It cannot be adjusted, but is relatively predictable and consistent day-to-day. Gaps in the wind are treated the same way as any other shortfall of base-load: first via load-following plants if possible and then with the help of the peakers.



Known gaps and shortfalls can also be handled through trading. For example, Washington State, US has abundant hydroelectric power, and exports energy to fourteen other states. Its overproduction of energy (which can itself be as harmful as underproduction) is usefully diverted to help make up some of the supply of neighboring states such as California (source). This export includes base-load if the local demand is dropping too quickly for the operating power plants to adjust.



Stored energy also makes a contribution. The sources for such extra energy may be storage sites such as pumped energy storage, batteries (e.g. this), or they may be generation (not necessarily burning fuel).



Lastly, load-shedding is a last-resort. If conditions are adverse (very high demand such as air-conditioning on a hot day, transmission line failures, loss of base-load, etc) then the grid operator may increase the real-time price of industrial energy, or even require that industrial grid users curtail their demand to avoid grid instability. If this is insufficient then blackouts and brownouts will occur, to prevent the total loss of the grid and its most critical users (hospitals, emergency services, communications).






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    That's all fairly accurate except I don't think coal is very efficient. Wind generation doesn't really count for much in the big picture yet. The NG gas turbines are expensive to operate but can load balance very quickly. Base line plant adjust so slowly that when demand drops too quickly electrity has to be dumped elsewhere. Which means selling it at significantly less then the cost of producing it. I know that our price in Canada changes with the American dollar. Excess power goes back and forth across the border and makes a mess of the price. The whole grid is interconnected.
    $endgroup$
    – Joe Fala
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @JoeFala Coal is not efficient relative to its environmental effect, but it is efficient relative to its financial cost in many parts of the world, to the best of my knowledge.
    $endgroup$
    – Andrey Akhmetov
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Oh yeah it's cheap but from a combustion efficiency point of view I don't think it's very good. I believe that many of the plants are being upgraded but because the cost is still low enough it not financially sustainable to run the higher efficiency plants. I haven't brushed up on this for several years, so I'm not familiar with the current technology. I'm pretty sure nuclear is the cheapest to run and the cleanest overall but expensive to set up and people are terrified of it. Nuclear is actually cleaner then solar panels if you factor in the production of the material in the panels.
    $endgroup$
    – Joe Fala
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    J-Power's unit 2 ultrasupercritical(mouthfull) in Japan has 45% efficiency which is pretty damn good. Nuclear power is is like 55% I think more of those ultrasupercritical plants are coming online soon.
    $endgroup$
    – Joe Fala
    1 hour ago











  • $begingroup$
    @JoeFala I've edited the answer to mention cost-efficiency in particular to avoid any confusion. Thank you for letting me know about the imprecise wording.
    $endgroup$
    – Andrey Akhmetov
    1 hour ago



















2












$begingroup$

I was going to scold you for not doing a search -- then couldn't find a decent answer! So -- here's a short answer:



First, jet engines -- no. You're thinking of gas turbines, but they are not jet engines (try a web search on "Gas Turbine").



Second, there's not a lot of energy storage on the electrical grid, aside from tanks of gas, piles of coal, uranium rods, and water behind dams. Batteries are starting to look like maybe they'll be practical, eventually. But by and large, when "alternative" energy sources poop out, there needs to be a "traditional" energy source that kicks in. Gas turbines are good for this because they can be brought on line quickly.



This wiki article goes into the grid storage issue.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    The statement on the gas turbine is imprecise but not incorrect. An aeroderivative gas turbine is basically a jet engine, do a web search on this. Peaker plants are usually aeroderivative gas turbines because they can start up in ~15 minutes. The alternative are called industrial gas turbines which are much larger and more efficient. Industrial gas turbines, especially combined cycle units, take hours to start up and shut down and so are inappropriate for peaking use.
    $endgroup$
    – user71659
    1 hour ago










Your Answer





StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["\$", "\$"]]);
);
);
, "mathjax-editing");

StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
return StackExchange.using("schematics", function ()
StackExchange.schematics.init();
);
, "cicuitlab");

StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "135"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);






Rob is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f426616%2fwhen-a-wind-turbine-does-not-produce-enough-electricity-how-does-the-power-compa%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









8












$begingroup$

This is correct. When the demand exceeds supply, voltage will sag and frequency will drop (which can risk equipment failure and is certainly an undesirable situation). The operators of power grids will turn on alternative sources of generation in order to correct the imbalance as soon as it is noticed (often under the coordination of a regional transmission organization such as CAISO).



Grid operators are very careful to ensure that the grid frequency is properly maintained (source); even a few seconds of drift (i.e. a few hundred cycles ahead or behind) require RTOs and related agencies to take corrective action where safe. Most of these measures work the same whether demand increases or supply decreases (and thus are relevant whether we are speaking about an increase in consumer load or a decrease in supply from wind or other renewable sources).



In order to understand the mix of energy a bit more thoroughly, it's necessary to take into account the types of generation, which include base-load plants, load-following plants, intermittent sources, and peaker plants:



  • Base-load plants are designed to operate at high cost efficiency (not necessarily environmental efficiency or any other measure of efficiency, unless dictated by local laws and priorities), but cannot be adjusted quickly. Examples of these may include large coal and nuclear base load.

  • Load-following plants can adjust if they have capacity (e.g. hydroelectric or smaller fuel-burning plants)

  • Peaker plants are agile and can be brought online quickly (e.g. gas turbines), but are inefficient. When the base-load plants are insufficient, load-following plants increase their load; if this capacity is exhausted or the grid is experiencing rapid swings in load that the load-following plants cannot keep up with, then peakers will come online and begin burning fuel to achieve enough supply to balance the demand.

Another factor to consider is planning: If an area has consistent winds and enough wind turbines, the wind can be considered part of base-load: It cannot be adjusted, but is relatively predictable and consistent day-to-day. Gaps in the wind are treated the same way as any other shortfall of base-load: first via load-following plants if possible and then with the help of the peakers.



Known gaps and shortfalls can also be handled through trading. For example, Washington State, US has abundant hydroelectric power, and exports energy to fourteen other states. Its overproduction of energy (which can itself be as harmful as underproduction) is usefully diverted to help make up some of the supply of neighboring states such as California (source). This export includes base-load if the local demand is dropping too quickly for the operating power plants to adjust.



Stored energy also makes a contribution. The sources for such extra energy may be storage sites such as pumped energy storage, batteries (e.g. this), or they may be generation (not necessarily burning fuel).



Lastly, load-shedding is a last-resort. If conditions are adverse (very high demand such as air-conditioning on a hot day, transmission line failures, loss of base-load, etc) then the grid operator may increase the real-time price of industrial energy, or even require that industrial grid users curtail their demand to avoid grid instability. If this is insufficient then blackouts and brownouts will occur, to prevent the total loss of the grid and its most critical users (hospitals, emergency services, communications).






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    That's all fairly accurate except I don't think coal is very efficient. Wind generation doesn't really count for much in the big picture yet. The NG gas turbines are expensive to operate but can load balance very quickly. Base line plant adjust so slowly that when demand drops too quickly electrity has to be dumped elsewhere. Which means selling it at significantly less then the cost of producing it. I know that our price in Canada changes with the American dollar. Excess power goes back and forth across the border and makes a mess of the price. The whole grid is interconnected.
    $endgroup$
    – Joe Fala
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @JoeFala Coal is not efficient relative to its environmental effect, but it is efficient relative to its financial cost in many parts of the world, to the best of my knowledge.
    $endgroup$
    – Andrey Akhmetov
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Oh yeah it's cheap but from a combustion efficiency point of view I don't think it's very good. I believe that many of the plants are being upgraded but because the cost is still low enough it not financially sustainable to run the higher efficiency plants. I haven't brushed up on this for several years, so I'm not familiar with the current technology. I'm pretty sure nuclear is the cheapest to run and the cleanest overall but expensive to set up and people are terrified of it. Nuclear is actually cleaner then solar panels if you factor in the production of the material in the panels.
    $endgroup$
    – Joe Fala
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    J-Power's unit 2 ultrasupercritical(mouthfull) in Japan has 45% efficiency which is pretty damn good. Nuclear power is is like 55% I think more of those ultrasupercritical plants are coming online soon.
    $endgroup$
    – Joe Fala
    1 hour ago











  • $begingroup$
    @JoeFala I've edited the answer to mention cost-efficiency in particular to avoid any confusion. Thank you for letting me know about the imprecise wording.
    $endgroup$
    – Andrey Akhmetov
    1 hour ago
















8












$begingroup$

This is correct. When the demand exceeds supply, voltage will sag and frequency will drop (which can risk equipment failure and is certainly an undesirable situation). The operators of power grids will turn on alternative sources of generation in order to correct the imbalance as soon as it is noticed (often under the coordination of a regional transmission organization such as CAISO).



Grid operators are very careful to ensure that the grid frequency is properly maintained (source); even a few seconds of drift (i.e. a few hundred cycles ahead or behind) require RTOs and related agencies to take corrective action where safe. Most of these measures work the same whether demand increases or supply decreases (and thus are relevant whether we are speaking about an increase in consumer load or a decrease in supply from wind or other renewable sources).



In order to understand the mix of energy a bit more thoroughly, it's necessary to take into account the types of generation, which include base-load plants, load-following plants, intermittent sources, and peaker plants:



  • Base-load plants are designed to operate at high cost efficiency (not necessarily environmental efficiency or any other measure of efficiency, unless dictated by local laws and priorities), but cannot be adjusted quickly. Examples of these may include large coal and nuclear base load.

  • Load-following plants can adjust if they have capacity (e.g. hydroelectric or smaller fuel-burning plants)

  • Peaker plants are agile and can be brought online quickly (e.g. gas turbines), but are inefficient. When the base-load plants are insufficient, load-following plants increase their load; if this capacity is exhausted or the grid is experiencing rapid swings in load that the load-following plants cannot keep up with, then peakers will come online and begin burning fuel to achieve enough supply to balance the demand.

Another factor to consider is planning: If an area has consistent winds and enough wind turbines, the wind can be considered part of base-load: It cannot be adjusted, but is relatively predictable and consistent day-to-day. Gaps in the wind are treated the same way as any other shortfall of base-load: first via load-following plants if possible and then with the help of the peakers.



Known gaps and shortfalls can also be handled through trading. For example, Washington State, US has abundant hydroelectric power, and exports energy to fourteen other states. Its overproduction of energy (which can itself be as harmful as underproduction) is usefully diverted to help make up some of the supply of neighboring states such as California (source). This export includes base-load if the local demand is dropping too quickly for the operating power plants to adjust.



Stored energy also makes a contribution. The sources for such extra energy may be storage sites such as pumped energy storage, batteries (e.g. this), or they may be generation (not necessarily burning fuel).



Lastly, load-shedding is a last-resort. If conditions are adverse (very high demand such as air-conditioning on a hot day, transmission line failures, loss of base-load, etc) then the grid operator may increase the real-time price of industrial energy, or even require that industrial grid users curtail their demand to avoid grid instability. If this is insufficient then blackouts and brownouts will occur, to prevent the total loss of the grid and its most critical users (hospitals, emergency services, communications).






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    That's all fairly accurate except I don't think coal is very efficient. Wind generation doesn't really count for much in the big picture yet. The NG gas turbines are expensive to operate but can load balance very quickly. Base line plant adjust so slowly that when demand drops too quickly electrity has to be dumped elsewhere. Which means selling it at significantly less then the cost of producing it. I know that our price in Canada changes with the American dollar. Excess power goes back and forth across the border and makes a mess of the price. The whole grid is interconnected.
    $endgroup$
    – Joe Fala
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @JoeFala Coal is not efficient relative to its environmental effect, but it is efficient relative to its financial cost in many parts of the world, to the best of my knowledge.
    $endgroup$
    – Andrey Akhmetov
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Oh yeah it's cheap but from a combustion efficiency point of view I don't think it's very good. I believe that many of the plants are being upgraded but because the cost is still low enough it not financially sustainable to run the higher efficiency plants. I haven't brushed up on this for several years, so I'm not familiar with the current technology. I'm pretty sure nuclear is the cheapest to run and the cleanest overall but expensive to set up and people are terrified of it. Nuclear is actually cleaner then solar panels if you factor in the production of the material in the panels.
    $endgroup$
    – Joe Fala
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    J-Power's unit 2 ultrasupercritical(mouthfull) in Japan has 45% efficiency which is pretty damn good. Nuclear power is is like 55% I think more of those ultrasupercritical plants are coming online soon.
    $endgroup$
    – Joe Fala
    1 hour ago











  • $begingroup$
    @JoeFala I've edited the answer to mention cost-efficiency in particular to avoid any confusion. Thank you for letting me know about the imprecise wording.
    $endgroup$
    – Andrey Akhmetov
    1 hour ago














8












8








8





$begingroup$

This is correct. When the demand exceeds supply, voltage will sag and frequency will drop (which can risk equipment failure and is certainly an undesirable situation). The operators of power grids will turn on alternative sources of generation in order to correct the imbalance as soon as it is noticed (often under the coordination of a regional transmission organization such as CAISO).



Grid operators are very careful to ensure that the grid frequency is properly maintained (source); even a few seconds of drift (i.e. a few hundred cycles ahead or behind) require RTOs and related agencies to take corrective action where safe. Most of these measures work the same whether demand increases or supply decreases (and thus are relevant whether we are speaking about an increase in consumer load or a decrease in supply from wind or other renewable sources).



In order to understand the mix of energy a bit more thoroughly, it's necessary to take into account the types of generation, which include base-load plants, load-following plants, intermittent sources, and peaker plants:



  • Base-load plants are designed to operate at high cost efficiency (not necessarily environmental efficiency or any other measure of efficiency, unless dictated by local laws and priorities), but cannot be adjusted quickly. Examples of these may include large coal and nuclear base load.

  • Load-following plants can adjust if they have capacity (e.g. hydroelectric or smaller fuel-burning plants)

  • Peaker plants are agile and can be brought online quickly (e.g. gas turbines), but are inefficient. When the base-load plants are insufficient, load-following plants increase their load; if this capacity is exhausted or the grid is experiencing rapid swings in load that the load-following plants cannot keep up with, then peakers will come online and begin burning fuel to achieve enough supply to balance the demand.

Another factor to consider is planning: If an area has consistent winds and enough wind turbines, the wind can be considered part of base-load: It cannot be adjusted, but is relatively predictable and consistent day-to-day. Gaps in the wind are treated the same way as any other shortfall of base-load: first via load-following plants if possible and then with the help of the peakers.



Known gaps and shortfalls can also be handled through trading. For example, Washington State, US has abundant hydroelectric power, and exports energy to fourteen other states. Its overproduction of energy (which can itself be as harmful as underproduction) is usefully diverted to help make up some of the supply of neighboring states such as California (source). This export includes base-load if the local demand is dropping too quickly for the operating power plants to adjust.



Stored energy also makes a contribution. The sources for such extra energy may be storage sites such as pumped energy storage, batteries (e.g. this), or they may be generation (not necessarily burning fuel).



Lastly, load-shedding is a last-resort. If conditions are adverse (very high demand such as air-conditioning on a hot day, transmission line failures, loss of base-load, etc) then the grid operator may increase the real-time price of industrial energy, or even require that industrial grid users curtail their demand to avoid grid instability. If this is insufficient then blackouts and brownouts will occur, to prevent the total loss of the grid and its most critical users (hospitals, emergency services, communications).






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



This is correct. When the demand exceeds supply, voltage will sag and frequency will drop (which can risk equipment failure and is certainly an undesirable situation). The operators of power grids will turn on alternative sources of generation in order to correct the imbalance as soon as it is noticed (often under the coordination of a regional transmission organization such as CAISO).



Grid operators are very careful to ensure that the grid frequency is properly maintained (source); even a few seconds of drift (i.e. a few hundred cycles ahead or behind) require RTOs and related agencies to take corrective action where safe. Most of these measures work the same whether demand increases or supply decreases (and thus are relevant whether we are speaking about an increase in consumer load or a decrease in supply from wind or other renewable sources).



In order to understand the mix of energy a bit more thoroughly, it's necessary to take into account the types of generation, which include base-load plants, load-following plants, intermittent sources, and peaker plants:



  • Base-load plants are designed to operate at high cost efficiency (not necessarily environmental efficiency or any other measure of efficiency, unless dictated by local laws and priorities), but cannot be adjusted quickly. Examples of these may include large coal and nuclear base load.

  • Load-following plants can adjust if they have capacity (e.g. hydroelectric or smaller fuel-burning plants)

  • Peaker plants are agile and can be brought online quickly (e.g. gas turbines), but are inefficient. When the base-load plants are insufficient, load-following plants increase their load; if this capacity is exhausted or the grid is experiencing rapid swings in load that the load-following plants cannot keep up with, then peakers will come online and begin burning fuel to achieve enough supply to balance the demand.

Another factor to consider is planning: If an area has consistent winds and enough wind turbines, the wind can be considered part of base-load: It cannot be adjusted, but is relatively predictable and consistent day-to-day. Gaps in the wind are treated the same way as any other shortfall of base-load: first via load-following plants if possible and then with the help of the peakers.



Known gaps and shortfalls can also be handled through trading. For example, Washington State, US has abundant hydroelectric power, and exports energy to fourteen other states. Its overproduction of energy (which can itself be as harmful as underproduction) is usefully diverted to help make up some of the supply of neighboring states such as California (source). This export includes base-load if the local demand is dropping too quickly for the operating power plants to adjust.



Stored energy also makes a contribution. The sources for such extra energy may be storage sites such as pumped energy storage, batteries (e.g. this), or they may be generation (not necessarily burning fuel).



Lastly, load-shedding is a last-resort. If conditions are adverse (very high demand such as air-conditioning on a hot day, transmission line failures, loss of base-load, etc) then the grid operator may increase the real-time price of industrial energy, or even require that industrial grid users curtail their demand to avoid grid instability. If this is insufficient then blackouts and brownouts will occur, to prevent the total loss of the grid and its most critical users (hospitals, emergency services, communications).







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 1 hour ago

























answered 2 hours ago









Andrey AkhmetovAndrey Akhmetov

1,123722




1,123722











  • $begingroup$
    That's all fairly accurate except I don't think coal is very efficient. Wind generation doesn't really count for much in the big picture yet. The NG gas turbines are expensive to operate but can load balance very quickly. Base line plant adjust so slowly that when demand drops too quickly electrity has to be dumped elsewhere. Which means selling it at significantly less then the cost of producing it. I know that our price in Canada changes with the American dollar. Excess power goes back and forth across the border and makes a mess of the price. The whole grid is interconnected.
    $endgroup$
    – Joe Fala
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @JoeFala Coal is not efficient relative to its environmental effect, but it is efficient relative to its financial cost in many parts of the world, to the best of my knowledge.
    $endgroup$
    – Andrey Akhmetov
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Oh yeah it's cheap but from a combustion efficiency point of view I don't think it's very good. I believe that many of the plants are being upgraded but because the cost is still low enough it not financially sustainable to run the higher efficiency plants. I haven't brushed up on this for several years, so I'm not familiar with the current technology. I'm pretty sure nuclear is the cheapest to run and the cleanest overall but expensive to set up and people are terrified of it. Nuclear is actually cleaner then solar panels if you factor in the production of the material in the panels.
    $endgroup$
    – Joe Fala
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    J-Power's unit 2 ultrasupercritical(mouthfull) in Japan has 45% efficiency which is pretty damn good. Nuclear power is is like 55% I think more of those ultrasupercritical plants are coming online soon.
    $endgroup$
    – Joe Fala
    1 hour ago











  • $begingroup$
    @JoeFala I've edited the answer to mention cost-efficiency in particular to avoid any confusion. Thank you for letting me know about the imprecise wording.
    $endgroup$
    – Andrey Akhmetov
    1 hour ago

















  • $begingroup$
    That's all fairly accurate except I don't think coal is very efficient. Wind generation doesn't really count for much in the big picture yet. The NG gas turbines are expensive to operate but can load balance very quickly. Base line plant adjust so slowly that when demand drops too quickly electrity has to be dumped elsewhere. Which means selling it at significantly less then the cost of producing it. I know that our price in Canada changes with the American dollar. Excess power goes back and forth across the border and makes a mess of the price. The whole grid is interconnected.
    $endgroup$
    – Joe Fala
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @JoeFala Coal is not efficient relative to its environmental effect, but it is efficient relative to its financial cost in many parts of the world, to the best of my knowledge.
    $endgroup$
    – Andrey Akhmetov
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Oh yeah it's cheap but from a combustion efficiency point of view I don't think it's very good. I believe that many of the plants are being upgraded but because the cost is still low enough it not financially sustainable to run the higher efficiency plants. I haven't brushed up on this for several years, so I'm not familiar with the current technology. I'm pretty sure nuclear is the cheapest to run and the cleanest overall but expensive to set up and people are terrified of it. Nuclear is actually cleaner then solar panels if you factor in the production of the material in the panels.
    $endgroup$
    – Joe Fala
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    J-Power's unit 2 ultrasupercritical(mouthfull) in Japan has 45% efficiency which is pretty damn good. Nuclear power is is like 55% I think more of those ultrasupercritical plants are coming online soon.
    $endgroup$
    – Joe Fala
    1 hour ago











  • $begingroup$
    @JoeFala I've edited the answer to mention cost-efficiency in particular to avoid any confusion. Thank you for letting me know about the imprecise wording.
    $endgroup$
    – Andrey Akhmetov
    1 hour ago
















$begingroup$
That's all fairly accurate except I don't think coal is very efficient. Wind generation doesn't really count for much in the big picture yet. The NG gas turbines are expensive to operate but can load balance very quickly. Base line plant adjust so slowly that when demand drops too quickly electrity has to be dumped elsewhere. Which means selling it at significantly less then the cost of producing it. I know that our price in Canada changes with the American dollar. Excess power goes back and forth across the border and makes a mess of the price. The whole grid is interconnected.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
That's all fairly accurate except I don't think coal is very efficient. Wind generation doesn't really count for much in the big picture yet. The NG gas turbines are expensive to operate but can load balance very quickly. Base line plant adjust so slowly that when demand drops too quickly electrity has to be dumped elsewhere. Which means selling it at significantly less then the cost of producing it. I know that our price in Canada changes with the American dollar. Excess power goes back and forth across the border and makes a mess of the price. The whole grid is interconnected.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
1 hour ago




1




1




$begingroup$
@JoeFala Coal is not efficient relative to its environmental effect, but it is efficient relative to its financial cost in many parts of the world, to the best of my knowledge.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
@JoeFala Coal is not efficient relative to its environmental effect, but it is efficient relative to its financial cost in many parts of the world, to the best of my knowledge.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
Oh yeah it's cheap but from a combustion efficiency point of view I don't think it's very good. I believe that many of the plants are being upgraded but because the cost is still low enough it not financially sustainable to run the higher efficiency plants. I haven't brushed up on this for several years, so I'm not familiar with the current technology. I'm pretty sure nuclear is the cheapest to run and the cleanest overall but expensive to set up and people are terrified of it. Nuclear is actually cleaner then solar panels if you factor in the production of the material in the panels.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
Oh yeah it's cheap but from a combustion efficiency point of view I don't think it's very good. I believe that many of the plants are being upgraded but because the cost is still low enough it not financially sustainable to run the higher efficiency plants. I haven't brushed up on this for several years, so I'm not familiar with the current technology. I'm pretty sure nuclear is the cheapest to run and the cleanest overall but expensive to set up and people are terrified of it. Nuclear is actually cleaner then solar panels if you factor in the production of the material in the panels.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
J-Power's unit 2 ultrasupercritical(mouthfull) in Japan has 45% efficiency which is pretty damn good. Nuclear power is is like 55% I think more of those ultrasupercritical plants are coming online soon.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
1 hour ago





$begingroup$
J-Power's unit 2 ultrasupercritical(mouthfull) in Japan has 45% efficiency which is pretty damn good. Nuclear power is is like 55% I think more of those ultrasupercritical plants are coming online soon.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
1 hour ago













$begingroup$
@JoeFala I've edited the answer to mention cost-efficiency in particular to avoid any confusion. Thank you for letting me know about the imprecise wording.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
1 hour ago





$begingroup$
@JoeFala I've edited the answer to mention cost-efficiency in particular to avoid any confusion. Thank you for letting me know about the imprecise wording.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
1 hour ago














2












$begingroup$

I was going to scold you for not doing a search -- then couldn't find a decent answer! So -- here's a short answer:



First, jet engines -- no. You're thinking of gas turbines, but they are not jet engines (try a web search on "Gas Turbine").



Second, there's not a lot of energy storage on the electrical grid, aside from tanks of gas, piles of coal, uranium rods, and water behind dams. Batteries are starting to look like maybe they'll be practical, eventually. But by and large, when "alternative" energy sources poop out, there needs to be a "traditional" energy source that kicks in. Gas turbines are good for this because they can be brought on line quickly.



This wiki article goes into the grid storage issue.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    The statement on the gas turbine is imprecise but not incorrect. An aeroderivative gas turbine is basically a jet engine, do a web search on this. Peaker plants are usually aeroderivative gas turbines because they can start up in ~15 minutes. The alternative are called industrial gas turbines which are much larger and more efficient. Industrial gas turbines, especially combined cycle units, take hours to start up and shut down and so are inappropriate for peaking use.
    $endgroup$
    – user71659
    1 hour ago















2












$begingroup$

I was going to scold you for not doing a search -- then couldn't find a decent answer! So -- here's a short answer:



First, jet engines -- no. You're thinking of gas turbines, but they are not jet engines (try a web search on "Gas Turbine").



Second, there's not a lot of energy storage on the electrical grid, aside from tanks of gas, piles of coal, uranium rods, and water behind dams. Batteries are starting to look like maybe they'll be practical, eventually. But by and large, when "alternative" energy sources poop out, there needs to be a "traditional" energy source that kicks in. Gas turbines are good for this because they can be brought on line quickly.



This wiki article goes into the grid storage issue.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    The statement on the gas turbine is imprecise but not incorrect. An aeroderivative gas turbine is basically a jet engine, do a web search on this. Peaker plants are usually aeroderivative gas turbines because they can start up in ~15 minutes. The alternative are called industrial gas turbines which are much larger and more efficient. Industrial gas turbines, especially combined cycle units, take hours to start up and shut down and so are inappropriate for peaking use.
    $endgroup$
    – user71659
    1 hour ago













2












2








2





$begingroup$

I was going to scold you for not doing a search -- then couldn't find a decent answer! So -- here's a short answer:



First, jet engines -- no. You're thinking of gas turbines, but they are not jet engines (try a web search on "Gas Turbine").



Second, there's not a lot of energy storage on the electrical grid, aside from tanks of gas, piles of coal, uranium rods, and water behind dams. Batteries are starting to look like maybe they'll be practical, eventually. But by and large, when "alternative" energy sources poop out, there needs to be a "traditional" energy source that kicks in. Gas turbines are good for this because they can be brought on line quickly.



This wiki article goes into the grid storage issue.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$



I was going to scold you for not doing a search -- then couldn't find a decent answer! So -- here's a short answer:



First, jet engines -- no. You're thinking of gas turbines, but they are not jet engines (try a web search on "Gas Turbine").



Second, there's not a lot of energy storage on the electrical grid, aside from tanks of gas, piles of coal, uranium rods, and water behind dams. Batteries are starting to look like maybe they'll be practical, eventually. But by and large, when "alternative" energy sources poop out, there needs to be a "traditional" energy source that kicks in. Gas turbines are good for this because they can be brought on line quickly.



This wiki article goes into the grid storage issue.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 2 hours ago









TimWescottTimWescott

5,6841414




5,6841414











  • $begingroup$
    The statement on the gas turbine is imprecise but not incorrect. An aeroderivative gas turbine is basically a jet engine, do a web search on this. Peaker plants are usually aeroderivative gas turbines because they can start up in ~15 minutes. The alternative are called industrial gas turbines which are much larger and more efficient. Industrial gas turbines, especially combined cycle units, take hours to start up and shut down and so are inappropriate for peaking use.
    $endgroup$
    – user71659
    1 hour ago
















  • $begingroup$
    The statement on the gas turbine is imprecise but not incorrect. An aeroderivative gas turbine is basically a jet engine, do a web search on this. Peaker plants are usually aeroderivative gas turbines because they can start up in ~15 minutes. The alternative are called industrial gas turbines which are much larger and more efficient. Industrial gas turbines, especially combined cycle units, take hours to start up and shut down and so are inappropriate for peaking use.
    $endgroup$
    – user71659
    1 hour ago















$begingroup$
The statement on the gas turbine is imprecise but not incorrect. An aeroderivative gas turbine is basically a jet engine, do a web search on this. Peaker plants are usually aeroderivative gas turbines because they can start up in ~15 minutes. The alternative are called industrial gas turbines which are much larger and more efficient. Industrial gas turbines, especially combined cycle units, take hours to start up and shut down and so are inappropriate for peaking use.
$endgroup$
– user71659
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
The statement on the gas turbine is imprecise but not incorrect. An aeroderivative gas turbine is basically a jet engine, do a web search on this. Peaker plants are usually aeroderivative gas turbines because they can start up in ~15 minutes. The alternative are called industrial gas turbines which are much larger and more efficient. Industrial gas turbines, especially combined cycle units, take hours to start up and shut down and so are inappropriate for peaking use.
$endgroup$
– user71659
1 hour ago










Rob is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









draft saved

draft discarded


















Rob is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












Rob is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.











Rob is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.














Thanks for contributing an answer to Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid


  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f426616%2fwhen-a-wind-turbine-does-not-produce-enough-electricity-how-does-the-power-compa%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







-power-engineering, power-grid

Popular posts from this blog

Mobil Contents History Mobil brands Former Mobil brands Lukoil transaction Mobil UK Mobil Australia Mobil New Zealand Mobil Greece Mobil in Japan Mobil in Canada Mobil Egypt See also References External links Navigation menuwww.mobil.com"Mobil Corporation"the original"Our Houston campus""Business & Finance: Socony-Vacuum Corp.""Popular Mechanics""Lubrite Technologies""Exxon Mobil campus 'clearly happening'""Toledo Blade - Google News Archive Search""The Lion and the Moose - How 2 Executives Pulled off the Biggest Merger Ever""ExxonMobil Press Release""Lubricants""Archived copy"the original"Mobil 1™ and Mobil Super™ motor oil and synthetic motor oil - Mobil™ Motor Oils""Mobil Delvac""Mobil Industrial website""The State of Competition in Gasoline Marketing: The Effects of Refiner Operations at Retail""Mobil Travel Guide to become Forbes Travel Guide""Hotel Rankings: Forbes Merges with Mobil"the original"Jamieson oil industry history""Mobil news""Caltex pumps for control""Watchdog blocks Caltex bid""Exxon Mobil sells service station network""Mobil Oil New Zealand Limited is New Zealand's oldest oil company, with predecessor companies having first established a presence in the country in 1896""ExxonMobil subsidiaries have a business history in New Zealand stretching back more than 120 years. We are involved in petroleum refining and distribution and the marketing of fuels, lubricants and chemical products""Archived copy"the original"Exxon Mobil to Sell Its Japanese Arm for $3.9 Billion""Gas station merger will end Esso and Mobil's long run in Japan""Esso moves to affiliate itself with PC Optimum, no longer Aeroplan, in loyalty point switch""Mobil brand of gas stations to launch in Canada after deal for 213 Loblaws-owned locations""Mobil Nears Completion of Rebranding 200 Loblaw Gas Stations""Learn about ExxonMobil's operations in Egypt""Petrol and Diesel Service Stations in Egypt - Mobil"Official websiteExxon Mobil corporate websiteMobil Industrial official websiteeeeeeeeDA04275022275790-40000 0001 0860 5061n82045453134887257134887257

Frič See also Navigation menuinternal link

Identify plant with long narrow paired leaves and reddish stems Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern) Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?What is this plant with long sharp leaves? Is it a weed?What is this 3ft high, stalky plant, with mid sized narrow leaves?What is this young shrub with opposite ovate, crenate leaves and reddish stems?What is this plant with large broad serrated leaves?Identify this upright branching weed with long leaves and reddish stemsPlease help me identify this bulbous plant with long, broad leaves and white flowersWhat is this small annual with narrow gray/green leaves and rust colored daisy-type flowers?What is this chilli plant?Does anyone know what type of chilli plant this is?Help identify this plant