Was credit for the black hole image misattributed? The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Was the QWERTY keyboard layout designed to slow down typists?Is the climber's head-lamp backstory for this long-exposure photo feasible?Can they calculate how close 2012 DA14 comes to Earth for the remainder of this centuryIs there a way to tell if the sun is rising or setting by looking at a picture and not knowing which coast it was taken at?Was the 30th of June the closest Venus and Jupiter have appeared since 2 B.C?Do pulses of lunar waves traverse across the moon?Was Sun's distance mentioned correctly in “Hanuman Chalisa”, the 16 th century poem?Did the Mayans believe the Earth was flat?Was the vertical cannonshot related by Samuel Rowbotham ever performed?Was the 2017 solar eclipse the most-observed in history?

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Was credit for the black hole image misattributed?



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Was the QWERTY keyboard layout designed to slow down typists?Is the climber's head-lamp backstory for this long-exposure photo feasible?Can they calculate how close 2012 DA14 comes to Earth for the remainder of this centuryIs there a way to tell if the sun is rising or setting by looking at a picture and not knowing which coast it was taken at?Was the 30th of June the closest Venus and Jupiter have appeared since 2 B.C?Do pulses of lunar waves traverse across the moon?Was Sun's distance mentioned correctly in “Hanuman Chalisa”, the 16 th century poem?Did the Mayans believe the Earth was flat?Was the vertical cannonshot related by Samuel Rowbotham ever performed?Was the 2017 solar eclipse the most-observed in history?










63















The Event Horizon Telescope (EHT) was used to create an image of Messier 87*, a supermassive black hole in the Messier 87 galaxy. This result has been heavily reported in the media leading up to its announcement 2019-04-10.



Recent postings on social media have argued over who should receive credit for this work. Some have credited Katie Bouman for the image, which others have contested as overstating her contributions to the overall project.



For example:



enter image description here




According to data provided publicly by GitHub, Bouman made 2,410 contributions to the over 900,000 lines of code required to create the first-of-its-kind black hole image, or 0.26 per cent. Bouman’s contributions also occurred toward the end of the work on the code.In contrast, contributor Andrew Chael wrote over 850,000 lines of code. While CNN attempted to give Bouman full credit, explaining “That’s where Bouman’s algorithm — along with several others — came in,” they slyly admitted that fellow researchers told CNN “‘(Bouman) was a major part of one of the imaging subteams,'” even after CNN incorrectly wrote on the previous line that she was on one of the “imaging teams,” not subteams.




Source: https://bigleaguepolitics.com/woman-who-media-claims-created-black-hole-image-contributed-0-26-of-code/



This analysis seems to disregard the way collaborative scientific research actually works; are the metrics being discussed sufficient to measure this kind of contribution, or the impact someone has on a project of this nature?










share|improve this question



















  • 13





    Reminder to prospective contributors: 1) do not answer in comments, we will nuke them aggressively without notice; 2) original research is not allowed on this site, please base any answers on reputable sources and not on your personal opinion of what should count as a contribution.

    – Sklivvz
    yesterday











  • It seems my earlier comment was deleted since it was part of a bit of a chat, but I'll reiterate my actually suggestion for improvement: Please more of what CNN said that Big League Politics described as attempting to give full credit.

    – Azor Ahai
    yesterday











  • I did a preliminary edit to help with adding context. However, someone who knows more about precisely what people on social media are arguing about could probably elaborate a bit more on the significance/relevance of the meme.

    – Nat
    23 hours ago






  • 6





    @TimPost: your edit to the title has completely altered what is being asked, invalidating the existing answers. Please revert or give a solid explanation for your change?

    – Jack Aidley
    19 hours ago






  • 6





    The 5th revision completely changes the meaning of the question. The CNN quote is still complete nonsense, but the titular question is completely different. That is not a change that should have been made.

    – Polygnome
    17 hours ago















63















The Event Horizon Telescope (EHT) was used to create an image of Messier 87*, a supermassive black hole in the Messier 87 galaxy. This result has been heavily reported in the media leading up to its announcement 2019-04-10.



Recent postings on social media have argued over who should receive credit for this work. Some have credited Katie Bouman for the image, which others have contested as overstating her contributions to the overall project.



For example:



enter image description here




According to data provided publicly by GitHub, Bouman made 2,410 contributions to the over 900,000 lines of code required to create the first-of-its-kind black hole image, or 0.26 per cent. Bouman’s contributions also occurred toward the end of the work on the code.In contrast, contributor Andrew Chael wrote over 850,000 lines of code. While CNN attempted to give Bouman full credit, explaining “That’s where Bouman’s algorithm — along with several others — came in,” they slyly admitted that fellow researchers told CNN “‘(Bouman) was a major part of one of the imaging subteams,'” even after CNN incorrectly wrote on the previous line that she was on one of the “imaging teams,” not subteams.




Source: https://bigleaguepolitics.com/woman-who-media-claims-created-black-hole-image-contributed-0-26-of-code/



This analysis seems to disregard the way collaborative scientific research actually works; are the metrics being discussed sufficient to measure this kind of contribution, or the impact someone has on a project of this nature?










share|improve this question



















  • 13





    Reminder to prospective contributors: 1) do not answer in comments, we will nuke them aggressively without notice; 2) original research is not allowed on this site, please base any answers on reputable sources and not on your personal opinion of what should count as a contribution.

    – Sklivvz
    yesterday











  • It seems my earlier comment was deleted since it was part of a bit of a chat, but I'll reiterate my actually suggestion for improvement: Please more of what CNN said that Big League Politics described as attempting to give full credit.

    – Azor Ahai
    yesterday











  • I did a preliminary edit to help with adding context. However, someone who knows more about precisely what people on social media are arguing about could probably elaborate a bit more on the significance/relevance of the meme.

    – Nat
    23 hours ago






  • 6





    @TimPost: your edit to the title has completely altered what is being asked, invalidating the existing answers. Please revert or give a solid explanation for your change?

    – Jack Aidley
    19 hours ago






  • 6





    The 5th revision completely changes the meaning of the question. The CNN quote is still complete nonsense, but the titular question is completely different. That is not a change that should have been made.

    – Polygnome
    17 hours ago













63












63








63


6






The Event Horizon Telescope (EHT) was used to create an image of Messier 87*, a supermassive black hole in the Messier 87 galaxy. This result has been heavily reported in the media leading up to its announcement 2019-04-10.



Recent postings on social media have argued over who should receive credit for this work. Some have credited Katie Bouman for the image, which others have contested as overstating her contributions to the overall project.



For example:



enter image description here




According to data provided publicly by GitHub, Bouman made 2,410 contributions to the over 900,000 lines of code required to create the first-of-its-kind black hole image, or 0.26 per cent. Bouman’s contributions also occurred toward the end of the work on the code.In contrast, contributor Andrew Chael wrote over 850,000 lines of code. While CNN attempted to give Bouman full credit, explaining “That’s where Bouman’s algorithm — along with several others — came in,” they slyly admitted that fellow researchers told CNN “‘(Bouman) was a major part of one of the imaging subteams,'” even after CNN incorrectly wrote on the previous line that she was on one of the “imaging teams,” not subteams.




Source: https://bigleaguepolitics.com/woman-who-media-claims-created-black-hole-image-contributed-0-26-of-code/



This analysis seems to disregard the way collaborative scientific research actually works; are the metrics being discussed sufficient to measure this kind of contribution, or the impact someone has on a project of this nature?










share|improve this question
















The Event Horizon Telescope (EHT) was used to create an image of Messier 87*, a supermassive black hole in the Messier 87 galaxy. This result has been heavily reported in the media leading up to its announcement 2019-04-10.



Recent postings on social media have argued over who should receive credit for this work. Some have credited Katie Bouman for the image, which others have contested as overstating her contributions to the overall project.



For example:



enter image description here




According to data provided publicly by GitHub, Bouman made 2,410 contributions to the over 900,000 lines of code required to create the first-of-its-kind black hole image, or 0.26 per cent. Bouman’s contributions also occurred toward the end of the work on the code.In contrast, contributor Andrew Chael wrote over 850,000 lines of code. While CNN attempted to give Bouman full credit, explaining “That’s where Bouman’s algorithm — along with several others — came in,” they slyly admitted that fellow researchers told CNN “‘(Bouman) was a major part of one of the imaging subteams,'” even after CNN incorrectly wrote on the previous line that she was on one of the “imaging teams,” not subteams.




Source: https://bigleaguepolitics.com/woman-who-media-claims-created-black-hole-image-contributed-0-26-of-code/



This analysis seems to disregard the way collaborative scientific research actually works; are the metrics being discussed sufficient to measure this kind of contribution, or the impact someone has on a project of this nature?







computers astronomy






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 4 hours ago









Mad Scientist

28k16134170




28k16134170










asked yesterday









SSimonSSimon

4021210




4021210







  • 13





    Reminder to prospective contributors: 1) do not answer in comments, we will nuke them aggressively without notice; 2) original research is not allowed on this site, please base any answers on reputable sources and not on your personal opinion of what should count as a contribution.

    – Sklivvz
    yesterday











  • It seems my earlier comment was deleted since it was part of a bit of a chat, but I'll reiterate my actually suggestion for improvement: Please more of what CNN said that Big League Politics described as attempting to give full credit.

    – Azor Ahai
    yesterday











  • I did a preliminary edit to help with adding context. However, someone who knows more about precisely what people on social media are arguing about could probably elaborate a bit more on the significance/relevance of the meme.

    – Nat
    23 hours ago






  • 6





    @TimPost: your edit to the title has completely altered what is being asked, invalidating the existing answers. Please revert or give a solid explanation for your change?

    – Jack Aidley
    19 hours ago






  • 6





    The 5th revision completely changes the meaning of the question. The CNN quote is still complete nonsense, but the titular question is completely different. That is not a change that should have been made.

    – Polygnome
    17 hours ago












  • 13





    Reminder to prospective contributors: 1) do not answer in comments, we will nuke them aggressively without notice; 2) original research is not allowed on this site, please base any answers on reputable sources and not on your personal opinion of what should count as a contribution.

    – Sklivvz
    yesterday











  • It seems my earlier comment was deleted since it was part of a bit of a chat, but I'll reiterate my actually suggestion for improvement: Please more of what CNN said that Big League Politics described as attempting to give full credit.

    – Azor Ahai
    yesterday











  • I did a preliminary edit to help with adding context. However, someone who knows more about precisely what people on social media are arguing about could probably elaborate a bit more on the significance/relevance of the meme.

    – Nat
    23 hours ago






  • 6





    @TimPost: your edit to the title has completely altered what is being asked, invalidating the existing answers. Please revert or give a solid explanation for your change?

    – Jack Aidley
    19 hours ago






  • 6





    The 5th revision completely changes the meaning of the question. The CNN quote is still complete nonsense, but the titular question is completely different. That is not a change that should have been made.

    – Polygnome
    17 hours ago







13




13





Reminder to prospective contributors: 1) do not answer in comments, we will nuke them aggressively without notice; 2) original research is not allowed on this site, please base any answers on reputable sources and not on your personal opinion of what should count as a contribution.

– Sklivvz
yesterday





Reminder to prospective contributors: 1) do not answer in comments, we will nuke them aggressively without notice; 2) original research is not allowed on this site, please base any answers on reputable sources and not on your personal opinion of what should count as a contribution.

– Sklivvz
yesterday













It seems my earlier comment was deleted since it was part of a bit of a chat, but I'll reiterate my actually suggestion for improvement: Please more of what CNN said that Big League Politics described as attempting to give full credit.

– Azor Ahai
yesterday





It seems my earlier comment was deleted since it was part of a bit of a chat, but I'll reiterate my actually suggestion for improvement: Please more of what CNN said that Big League Politics described as attempting to give full credit.

– Azor Ahai
yesterday













I did a preliminary edit to help with adding context. However, someone who knows more about precisely what people on social media are arguing about could probably elaborate a bit more on the significance/relevance of the meme.

– Nat
23 hours ago





I did a preliminary edit to help with adding context. However, someone who knows more about precisely what people on social media are arguing about could probably elaborate a bit more on the significance/relevance of the meme.

– Nat
23 hours ago




6




6





@TimPost: your edit to the title has completely altered what is being asked, invalidating the existing answers. Please revert or give a solid explanation for your change?

– Jack Aidley
19 hours ago





@TimPost: your edit to the title has completely altered what is being asked, invalidating the existing answers. Please revert or give a solid explanation for your change?

– Jack Aidley
19 hours ago




6




6





The 5th revision completely changes the meaning of the question. The CNN quote is still complete nonsense, but the titular question is completely different. That is not a change that should have been made.

– Polygnome
17 hours ago





The 5th revision completely changes the meaning of the question. The CNN quote is still complete nonsense, but the titular question is completely different. That is not a change that should have been made.

– Polygnome
17 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















182














The metric does not measure what it is claimed it does, and even if it did it would be meaningless for assessing the role of Dr. Kate Bouman in creating the image. I'll go on to why, but I first want to draw particularly attention to the fact that Dr. Bouman has explicitly rejected the idea that she deserves sole credit:




But Dr Bouman, now an assistant professor of computing and mathematical sciences at the California Institute of Technology, insisted the team that helped her deserves equal credit.



The effort to capture the image, using telescopes in locations ranging from Antarctica to Chile, involved a team of more than 200 scientists.



"No one of us could've done it alone," she told CNN. "It came together because of lots of different people from many different backgrounds."




(source)



The primary reason the metric is meaningless is that Dr. Bouman is credited with developing an algorithm not with typing lines of code, so any metric measuring code production is simply not measuring the thing she is credited with doing. She could have typed not a single character and still designed the algorithm that played a key role. It's like trying to measure the input of an architect by how many bricks they laid in a building.



Additionally, the project is broader in scope than simply implementing the algorithm credited to Dr. Bouman. Large amounts of code are involved in simply loading and co-ordinating files, displaying and saving images, and the like. All of which is necessary to the project at large but not specific to the algorithm used.



Finally and least importantly, the statistics in GitHub are not even measuring Lines of Code written - as claimed in the source - they are measuring lines changed in submission. Those lines can be code, or a change to a line, or a line copied between branches, even blank lines. In fact, (and, hat tip @Polygnome) the count includes lines which aren't even in the code at all, as there is also data and documentation included.






share|improve this answer




















  • 75





    Plus one for the architect/bricklayer analogy, perfectly captures the rhetorical sleight-of-hand in the original claim.

    – Jared Smith
    yesterday






  • 15





    It does remind me of this story, when Apple back in the Macintosh days decided to track productivity by lines of code: folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.txt

    – BoredBsee
    yesterday






  • 16





    FWIW: Chael has stated that the bulk of the 850k lines he added are from a small number of model files, i.e. data, not code (twitter.com/thisgreyspirit/status/1116519313488470017). FWIW, I also dug into the codebase and concluded the same.

    – Dancrumb
    yesterday






  • 10





    Something not mentioned, but also worth pointing out: There were 200 people working on that image. Assessing the importance or quantity of their contributions based on the contributions of 9 (!) people to a GitHub repository is.... misguided at best, malevolent at worst.

    – Polygnome
    17 hours ago






  • 5





    Katie Bouman presented her method of producing the image from the sparse radiotelescope data through machine learning already in 2016 in this TED talk: ted.com/talks/katie_bouman_what_does_a_black_hole_look_like. Even if she didn't write a line of code, the idea of producing the final image from this huge amount of data appears to be originally hers.

    – Mick Mnemonic
    12 hours ago



















113














Technically, that is the percentage of the code she contributed, 2410 lines in 90 commits.



From https://github.com/achael/eht-imaging/graphs/contributors



enter image description here



But that tells us nothing about what the code does. Andrew Chael, the man who is credited with doing the work in that article, has spoken up against the rhetoric used against her.



From https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/katie-bouman-black-hole-image-first-telescope-a8866536.html




"While I wrote much of the code for one of these pipelines, Katie was a huge contributor to the software; it would have never worked without her contributions and the work of many others who wrote code, debugged, and figured out how to use the code on challenging EHT data.



"With a few others, Katie also developed the imaging framework that
rigorously tested all three codes and shaped the entire paper.



"As a result, this is probably the most vetted image in the history of
radio interferometry. I'm thrilled Katie is getting recognition for
her work and that she's inspiring people as an example of women's
leadership in STEM.







share|improve this answer























  • @JeromeViveiros can you edit the answer to reflect the new question?

    – SSimon
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    "that is the percentage of the code she contributed" (emphasis mine) - this isn't correct, since most of those lines are not actually "code" i.e. while at a quick glance it looks like achael wrote most of the python in the repo, they did not write 850,000 lines (unsurprisingly). find . -name '*.py' | xargs wc -l shows there are about 36K of what a reasonable person would call "lines of code"

    – jberryman
    2 hours ago



















21














The old title asked "Did researcher Katie Bouman only contribute 0.26% of code that created Black Hole image," and the existing answers do a good job explaining why it isn't true and why lines of code aren't a useful metric. The new title, however, asks "Was credit for the black hole image misappropriated?" and the correct answer should appear rather differently.



On the one hand, we know that Bouman deserves a large share of credit.



From https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/10/us/katie-bouman-mit-black-hole-algorithm-sci-trnd/index.html




"(Bouman) was a major part of one of the imaging subteams," said Vincent Fish, a research scientist at MIT's Haystack Observatory.



For the past few years, Bouman directed the verification of images and selection of imaging parameters.



"We developed ways to generate synthetic data and used different algorithms and tested blindly to see if we can recover an image," she told CNN.
"We didn't want to just develop one algorithm. We wanted to develop many different algorithms that all have different assumptions built into them. If all of them recover the same general structure, then that builds your confidence."



That's where Bouman's algorithm -- along with several others -- came in. Using imaging algorithms like Bouman's, researchers created three scripted code pipelines to piece together the picture.




However, Bouman does not deserve all of the credit. So, for the claim to be true, we would need to see that journalists claimed that she deserves all of the credit.



CNN's headline is sufficiently reserved and the article goes far in explaining Bouman's work.




That image of a black hole you saw everywhere? Thank this grad student for making it possible




However, BBC News was rather more sensational.




Katie Bouman: The woman behind the first black hole image




Furthermore, it claims:




The black hole image, captured by the Event Horizon Telescope (EHT) - a network of eight linked telescopes - was rendered by Dr Bouman's algorithm.




However, as CNN explained above, multiple algorithms were used.



Another source, phys.org went with the factually inaccurate claim in its headline:




Scientist superstar Katie Bouman designed algorithm for black hole image




(it is arguable what is being claimed due to a missing article, although in such a headline "the" might be presumed)



So, I can see evidence for the claim that credit was misappropriated by some publications. Off topic: I find it rather unfortunate, too, since clickbait headlines and claims drive societal schisms.






share|improve this answer

























  • OP has since added the text of a tweet that they claim supports a view that Dr. Bouman deserves zero credit. So it seems like OP is coming from the standpoint that, if she has been given any credit is is therefore misappropriated or misapplied. You might want to address that as well.

    – GalacticCowboy
    4 hours ago










protected by Sklivvz yesterday



Thank you for your interest in this question.
Because it has attracted low-quality or spam answers that had to be removed, posting an answer now requires 10 reputation on this site (the association bonus does not count).



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3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes








3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









182














The metric does not measure what it is claimed it does, and even if it did it would be meaningless for assessing the role of Dr. Kate Bouman in creating the image. I'll go on to why, but I first want to draw particularly attention to the fact that Dr. Bouman has explicitly rejected the idea that she deserves sole credit:




But Dr Bouman, now an assistant professor of computing and mathematical sciences at the California Institute of Technology, insisted the team that helped her deserves equal credit.



The effort to capture the image, using telescopes in locations ranging from Antarctica to Chile, involved a team of more than 200 scientists.



"No one of us could've done it alone," she told CNN. "It came together because of lots of different people from many different backgrounds."




(source)



The primary reason the metric is meaningless is that Dr. Bouman is credited with developing an algorithm not with typing lines of code, so any metric measuring code production is simply not measuring the thing she is credited with doing. She could have typed not a single character and still designed the algorithm that played a key role. It's like trying to measure the input of an architect by how many bricks they laid in a building.



Additionally, the project is broader in scope than simply implementing the algorithm credited to Dr. Bouman. Large amounts of code are involved in simply loading and co-ordinating files, displaying and saving images, and the like. All of which is necessary to the project at large but not specific to the algorithm used.



Finally and least importantly, the statistics in GitHub are not even measuring Lines of Code written - as claimed in the source - they are measuring lines changed in submission. Those lines can be code, or a change to a line, or a line copied between branches, even blank lines. In fact, (and, hat tip @Polygnome) the count includes lines which aren't even in the code at all, as there is also data and documentation included.






share|improve this answer




















  • 75





    Plus one for the architect/bricklayer analogy, perfectly captures the rhetorical sleight-of-hand in the original claim.

    – Jared Smith
    yesterday






  • 15





    It does remind me of this story, when Apple back in the Macintosh days decided to track productivity by lines of code: folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.txt

    – BoredBsee
    yesterday






  • 16





    FWIW: Chael has stated that the bulk of the 850k lines he added are from a small number of model files, i.e. data, not code (twitter.com/thisgreyspirit/status/1116519313488470017). FWIW, I also dug into the codebase and concluded the same.

    – Dancrumb
    yesterday






  • 10





    Something not mentioned, but also worth pointing out: There were 200 people working on that image. Assessing the importance or quantity of their contributions based on the contributions of 9 (!) people to a GitHub repository is.... misguided at best, malevolent at worst.

    – Polygnome
    17 hours ago






  • 5





    Katie Bouman presented her method of producing the image from the sparse radiotelescope data through machine learning already in 2016 in this TED talk: ted.com/talks/katie_bouman_what_does_a_black_hole_look_like. Even if she didn't write a line of code, the idea of producing the final image from this huge amount of data appears to be originally hers.

    – Mick Mnemonic
    12 hours ago
















182














The metric does not measure what it is claimed it does, and even if it did it would be meaningless for assessing the role of Dr. Kate Bouman in creating the image. I'll go on to why, but I first want to draw particularly attention to the fact that Dr. Bouman has explicitly rejected the idea that she deserves sole credit:




But Dr Bouman, now an assistant professor of computing and mathematical sciences at the California Institute of Technology, insisted the team that helped her deserves equal credit.



The effort to capture the image, using telescopes in locations ranging from Antarctica to Chile, involved a team of more than 200 scientists.



"No one of us could've done it alone," she told CNN. "It came together because of lots of different people from many different backgrounds."




(source)



The primary reason the metric is meaningless is that Dr. Bouman is credited with developing an algorithm not with typing lines of code, so any metric measuring code production is simply not measuring the thing she is credited with doing. She could have typed not a single character and still designed the algorithm that played a key role. It's like trying to measure the input of an architect by how many bricks they laid in a building.



Additionally, the project is broader in scope than simply implementing the algorithm credited to Dr. Bouman. Large amounts of code are involved in simply loading and co-ordinating files, displaying and saving images, and the like. All of which is necessary to the project at large but not specific to the algorithm used.



Finally and least importantly, the statistics in GitHub are not even measuring Lines of Code written - as claimed in the source - they are measuring lines changed in submission. Those lines can be code, or a change to a line, or a line copied between branches, even blank lines. In fact, (and, hat tip @Polygnome) the count includes lines which aren't even in the code at all, as there is also data and documentation included.






share|improve this answer




















  • 75





    Plus one for the architect/bricklayer analogy, perfectly captures the rhetorical sleight-of-hand in the original claim.

    – Jared Smith
    yesterday






  • 15





    It does remind me of this story, when Apple back in the Macintosh days decided to track productivity by lines of code: folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.txt

    – BoredBsee
    yesterday






  • 16





    FWIW: Chael has stated that the bulk of the 850k lines he added are from a small number of model files, i.e. data, not code (twitter.com/thisgreyspirit/status/1116519313488470017). FWIW, I also dug into the codebase and concluded the same.

    – Dancrumb
    yesterday






  • 10





    Something not mentioned, but also worth pointing out: There were 200 people working on that image. Assessing the importance or quantity of their contributions based on the contributions of 9 (!) people to a GitHub repository is.... misguided at best, malevolent at worst.

    – Polygnome
    17 hours ago






  • 5





    Katie Bouman presented her method of producing the image from the sparse radiotelescope data through machine learning already in 2016 in this TED talk: ted.com/talks/katie_bouman_what_does_a_black_hole_look_like. Even if she didn't write a line of code, the idea of producing the final image from this huge amount of data appears to be originally hers.

    – Mick Mnemonic
    12 hours ago














182












182








182







The metric does not measure what it is claimed it does, and even if it did it would be meaningless for assessing the role of Dr. Kate Bouman in creating the image. I'll go on to why, but I first want to draw particularly attention to the fact that Dr. Bouman has explicitly rejected the idea that she deserves sole credit:




But Dr Bouman, now an assistant professor of computing and mathematical sciences at the California Institute of Technology, insisted the team that helped her deserves equal credit.



The effort to capture the image, using telescopes in locations ranging from Antarctica to Chile, involved a team of more than 200 scientists.



"No one of us could've done it alone," she told CNN. "It came together because of lots of different people from many different backgrounds."




(source)



The primary reason the metric is meaningless is that Dr. Bouman is credited with developing an algorithm not with typing lines of code, so any metric measuring code production is simply not measuring the thing she is credited with doing. She could have typed not a single character and still designed the algorithm that played a key role. It's like trying to measure the input of an architect by how many bricks they laid in a building.



Additionally, the project is broader in scope than simply implementing the algorithm credited to Dr. Bouman. Large amounts of code are involved in simply loading and co-ordinating files, displaying and saving images, and the like. All of which is necessary to the project at large but not specific to the algorithm used.



Finally and least importantly, the statistics in GitHub are not even measuring Lines of Code written - as claimed in the source - they are measuring lines changed in submission. Those lines can be code, or a change to a line, or a line copied between branches, even blank lines. In fact, (and, hat tip @Polygnome) the count includes lines which aren't even in the code at all, as there is also data and documentation included.






share|improve this answer















The metric does not measure what it is claimed it does, and even if it did it would be meaningless for assessing the role of Dr. Kate Bouman in creating the image. I'll go on to why, but I first want to draw particularly attention to the fact that Dr. Bouman has explicitly rejected the idea that she deserves sole credit:




But Dr Bouman, now an assistant professor of computing and mathematical sciences at the California Institute of Technology, insisted the team that helped her deserves equal credit.



The effort to capture the image, using telescopes in locations ranging from Antarctica to Chile, involved a team of more than 200 scientists.



"No one of us could've done it alone," she told CNN. "It came together because of lots of different people from many different backgrounds."




(source)



The primary reason the metric is meaningless is that Dr. Bouman is credited with developing an algorithm not with typing lines of code, so any metric measuring code production is simply not measuring the thing she is credited with doing. She could have typed not a single character and still designed the algorithm that played a key role. It's like trying to measure the input of an architect by how many bricks they laid in a building.



Additionally, the project is broader in scope than simply implementing the algorithm credited to Dr. Bouman. Large amounts of code are involved in simply loading and co-ordinating files, displaying and saving images, and the like. All of which is necessary to the project at large but not specific to the algorithm used.



Finally and least importantly, the statistics in GitHub are not even measuring Lines of Code written - as claimed in the source - they are measuring lines changed in submission. Those lines can be code, or a change to a line, or a line copied between branches, even blank lines. In fact, (and, hat tip @Polygnome) the count includes lines which aren't even in the code at all, as there is also data and documentation included.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited yesterday

























answered yesterday









Jack AidleyJack Aidley

8201712




8201712







  • 75





    Plus one for the architect/bricklayer analogy, perfectly captures the rhetorical sleight-of-hand in the original claim.

    – Jared Smith
    yesterday






  • 15





    It does remind me of this story, when Apple back in the Macintosh days decided to track productivity by lines of code: folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.txt

    – BoredBsee
    yesterday






  • 16





    FWIW: Chael has stated that the bulk of the 850k lines he added are from a small number of model files, i.e. data, not code (twitter.com/thisgreyspirit/status/1116519313488470017). FWIW, I also dug into the codebase and concluded the same.

    – Dancrumb
    yesterday






  • 10





    Something not mentioned, but also worth pointing out: There were 200 people working on that image. Assessing the importance or quantity of their contributions based on the contributions of 9 (!) people to a GitHub repository is.... misguided at best, malevolent at worst.

    – Polygnome
    17 hours ago






  • 5





    Katie Bouman presented her method of producing the image from the sparse radiotelescope data through machine learning already in 2016 in this TED talk: ted.com/talks/katie_bouman_what_does_a_black_hole_look_like. Even if she didn't write a line of code, the idea of producing the final image from this huge amount of data appears to be originally hers.

    – Mick Mnemonic
    12 hours ago













  • 75





    Plus one for the architect/bricklayer analogy, perfectly captures the rhetorical sleight-of-hand in the original claim.

    – Jared Smith
    yesterday






  • 15





    It does remind me of this story, when Apple back in the Macintosh days decided to track productivity by lines of code: folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.txt

    – BoredBsee
    yesterday






  • 16





    FWIW: Chael has stated that the bulk of the 850k lines he added are from a small number of model files, i.e. data, not code (twitter.com/thisgreyspirit/status/1116519313488470017). FWIW, I also dug into the codebase and concluded the same.

    – Dancrumb
    yesterday






  • 10





    Something not mentioned, but also worth pointing out: There were 200 people working on that image. Assessing the importance or quantity of their contributions based on the contributions of 9 (!) people to a GitHub repository is.... misguided at best, malevolent at worst.

    – Polygnome
    17 hours ago






  • 5





    Katie Bouman presented her method of producing the image from the sparse radiotelescope data through machine learning already in 2016 in this TED talk: ted.com/talks/katie_bouman_what_does_a_black_hole_look_like. Even if she didn't write a line of code, the idea of producing the final image from this huge amount of data appears to be originally hers.

    – Mick Mnemonic
    12 hours ago








75




75





Plus one for the architect/bricklayer analogy, perfectly captures the rhetorical sleight-of-hand in the original claim.

– Jared Smith
yesterday





Plus one for the architect/bricklayer analogy, perfectly captures the rhetorical sleight-of-hand in the original claim.

– Jared Smith
yesterday




15




15





It does remind me of this story, when Apple back in the Macintosh days decided to track productivity by lines of code: folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.txt

– BoredBsee
yesterday





It does remind me of this story, when Apple back in the Macintosh days decided to track productivity by lines of code: folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.txt

– BoredBsee
yesterday




16




16





FWIW: Chael has stated that the bulk of the 850k lines he added are from a small number of model files, i.e. data, not code (twitter.com/thisgreyspirit/status/1116519313488470017). FWIW, I also dug into the codebase and concluded the same.

– Dancrumb
yesterday





FWIW: Chael has stated that the bulk of the 850k lines he added are from a small number of model files, i.e. data, not code (twitter.com/thisgreyspirit/status/1116519313488470017). FWIW, I also dug into the codebase and concluded the same.

– Dancrumb
yesterday




10




10





Something not mentioned, but also worth pointing out: There were 200 people working on that image. Assessing the importance or quantity of their contributions based on the contributions of 9 (!) people to a GitHub repository is.... misguided at best, malevolent at worst.

– Polygnome
17 hours ago





Something not mentioned, but also worth pointing out: There were 200 people working on that image. Assessing the importance or quantity of their contributions based on the contributions of 9 (!) people to a GitHub repository is.... misguided at best, malevolent at worst.

– Polygnome
17 hours ago




5




5





Katie Bouman presented her method of producing the image from the sparse radiotelescope data through machine learning already in 2016 in this TED talk: ted.com/talks/katie_bouman_what_does_a_black_hole_look_like. Even if she didn't write a line of code, the idea of producing the final image from this huge amount of data appears to be originally hers.

– Mick Mnemonic
12 hours ago






Katie Bouman presented her method of producing the image from the sparse radiotelescope data through machine learning already in 2016 in this TED talk: ted.com/talks/katie_bouman_what_does_a_black_hole_look_like. Even if she didn't write a line of code, the idea of producing the final image from this huge amount of data appears to be originally hers.

– Mick Mnemonic
12 hours ago












113














Technically, that is the percentage of the code she contributed, 2410 lines in 90 commits.



From https://github.com/achael/eht-imaging/graphs/contributors



enter image description here



But that tells us nothing about what the code does. Andrew Chael, the man who is credited with doing the work in that article, has spoken up against the rhetoric used against her.



From https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/katie-bouman-black-hole-image-first-telescope-a8866536.html




"While I wrote much of the code for one of these pipelines, Katie was a huge contributor to the software; it would have never worked without her contributions and the work of many others who wrote code, debugged, and figured out how to use the code on challenging EHT data.



"With a few others, Katie also developed the imaging framework that
rigorously tested all three codes and shaped the entire paper.



"As a result, this is probably the most vetted image in the history of
radio interferometry. I'm thrilled Katie is getting recognition for
her work and that she's inspiring people as an example of women's
leadership in STEM.







share|improve this answer























  • @JeromeViveiros can you edit the answer to reflect the new question?

    – SSimon
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    "that is the percentage of the code she contributed" (emphasis mine) - this isn't correct, since most of those lines are not actually "code" i.e. while at a quick glance it looks like achael wrote most of the python in the repo, they did not write 850,000 lines (unsurprisingly). find . -name '*.py' | xargs wc -l shows there are about 36K of what a reasonable person would call "lines of code"

    – jberryman
    2 hours ago
















113














Technically, that is the percentage of the code she contributed, 2410 lines in 90 commits.



From https://github.com/achael/eht-imaging/graphs/contributors



enter image description here



But that tells us nothing about what the code does. Andrew Chael, the man who is credited with doing the work in that article, has spoken up against the rhetoric used against her.



From https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/katie-bouman-black-hole-image-first-telescope-a8866536.html




"While I wrote much of the code for one of these pipelines, Katie was a huge contributor to the software; it would have never worked without her contributions and the work of many others who wrote code, debugged, and figured out how to use the code on challenging EHT data.



"With a few others, Katie also developed the imaging framework that
rigorously tested all three codes and shaped the entire paper.



"As a result, this is probably the most vetted image in the history of
radio interferometry. I'm thrilled Katie is getting recognition for
her work and that she's inspiring people as an example of women's
leadership in STEM.







share|improve this answer























  • @JeromeViveiros can you edit the answer to reflect the new question?

    – SSimon
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    "that is the percentage of the code she contributed" (emphasis mine) - this isn't correct, since most of those lines are not actually "code" i.e. while at a quick glance it looks like achael wrote most of the python in the repo, they did not write 850,000 lines (unsurprisingly). find . -name '*.py' | xargs wc -l shows there are about 36K of what a reasonable person would call "lines of code"

    – jberryman
    2 hours ago














113












113








113







Technically, that is the percentage of the code she contributed, 2410 lines in 90 commits.



From https://github.com/achael/eht-imaging/graphs/contributors



enter image description here



But that tells us nothing about what the code does. Andrew Chael, the man who is credited with doing the work in that article, has spoken up against the rhetoric used against her.



From https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/katie-bouman-black-hole-image-first-telescope-a8866536.html




"While I wrote much of the code for one of these pipelines, Katie was a huge contributor to the software; it would have never worked without her contributions and the work of many others who wrote code, debugged, and figured out how to use the code on challenging EHT data.



"With a few others, Katie also developed the imaging framework that
rigorously tested all three codes and shaped the entire paper.



"As a result, this is probably the most vetted image in the history of
radio interferometry. I'm thrilled Katie is getting recognition for
her work and that she's inspiring people as an example of women's
leadership in STEM.







share|improve this answer













Technically, that is the percentage of the code she contributed, 2410 lines in 90 commits.



From https://github.com/achael/eht-imaging/graphs/contributors



enter image description here



But that tells us nothing about what the code does. Andrew Chael, the man who is credited with doing the work in that article, has spoken up against the rhetoric used against her.



From https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/katie-bouman-black-hole-image-first-telescope-a8866536.html




"While I wrote much of the code for one of these pipelines, Katie was a huge contributor to the software; it would have never worked without her contributions and the work of many others who wrote code, debugged, and figured out how to use the code on challenging EHT data.



"With a few others, Katie also developed the imaging framework that
rigorously tested all three codes and shaped the entire paper.



"As a result, this is probably the most vetted image in the history of
radio interferometry. I'm thrilled Katie is getting recognition for
her work and that she's inspiring people as an example of women's
leadership in STEM.








share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered yesterday









Jerome ViveirosJerome Viveiros

5971213




5971213












  • @JeromeViveiros can you edit the answer to reflect the new question?

    – SSimon
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    "that is the percentage of the code she contributed" (emphasis mine) - this isn't correct, since most of those lines are not actually "code" i.e. while at a quick glance it looks like achael wrote most of the python in the repo, they did not write 850,000 lines (unsurprisingly). find . -name '*.py' | xargs wc -l shows there are about 36K of what a reasonable person would call "lines of code"

    – jberryman
    2 hours ago


















  • @JeromeViveiros can you edit the answer to reflect the new question?

    – SSimon
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    "that is the percentage of the code she contributed" (emphasis mine) - this isn't correct, since most of those lines are not actually "code" i.e. while at a quick glance it looks like achael wrote most of the python in the repo, they did not write 850,000 lines (unsurprisingly). find . -name '*.py' | xargs wc -l shows there are about 36K of what a reasonable person would call "lines of code"

    – jberryman
    2 hours ago

















@JeromeViveiros can you edit the answer to reflect the new question?

– SSimon
14 hours ago





@JeromeViveiros can you edit the answer to reflect the new question?

– SSimon
14 hours ago




1




1





"that is the percentage of the code she contributed" (emphasis mine) - this isn't correct, since most of those lines are not actually "code" i.e. while at a quick glance it looks like achael wrote most of the python in the repo, they did not write 850,000 lines (unsurprisingly). find . -name '*.py' | xargs wc -l shows there are about 36K of what a reasonable person would call "lines of code"

– jberryman
2 hours ago






"that is the percentage of the code she contributed" (emphasis mine) - this isn't correct, since most of those lines are not actually "code" i.e. while at a quick glance it looks like achael wrote most of the python in the repo, they did not write 850,000 lines (unsurprisingly). find . -name '*.py' | xargs wc -l shows there are about 36K of what a reasonable person would call "lines of code"

– jberryman
2 hours ago












21














The old title asked "Did researcher Katie Bouman only contribute 0.26% of code that created Black Hole image," and the existing answers do a good job explaining why it isn't true and why lines of code aren't a useful metric. The new title, however, asks "Was credit for the black hole image misappropriated?" and the correct answer should appear rather differently.



On the one hand, we know that Bouman deserves a large share of credit.



From https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/10/us/katie-bouman-mit-black-hole-algorithm-sci-trnd/index.html




"(Bouman) was a major part of one of the imaging subteams," said Vincent Fish, a research scientist at MIT's Haystack Observatory.



For the past few years, Bouman directed the verification of images and selection of imaging parameters.



"We developed ways to generate synthetic data and used different algorithms and tested blindly to see if we can recover an image," she told CNN.
"We didn't want to just develop one algorithm. We wanted to develop many different algorithms that all have different assumptions built into them. If all of them recover the same general structure, then that builds your confidence."



That's where Bouman's algorithm -- along with several others -- came in. Using imaging algorithms like Bouman's, researchers created three scripted code pipelines to piece together the picture.




However, Bouman does not deserve all of the credit. So, for the claim to be true, we would need to see that journalists claimed that she deserves all of the credit.



CNN's headline is sufficiently reserved and the article goes far in explaining Bouman's work.




That image of a black hole you saw everywhere? Thank this grad student for making it possible




However, BBC News was rather more sensational.




Katie Bouman: The woman behind the first black hole image




Furthermore, it claims:




The black hole image, captured by the Event Horizon Telescope (EHT) - a network of eight linked telescopes - was rendered by Dr Bouman's algorithm.




However, as CNN explained above, multiple algorithms were used.



Another source, phys.org went with the factually inaccurate claim in its headline:




Scientist superstar Katie Bouman designed algorithm for black hole image




(it is arguable what is being claimed due to a missing article, although in such a headline "the" might be presumed)



So, I can see evidence for the claim that credit was misappropriated by some publications. Off topic: I find it rather unfortunate, too, since clickbait headlines and claims drive societal schisms.






share|improve this answer

























  • OP has since added the text of a tweet that they claim supports a view that Dr. Bouman deserves zero credit. So it seems like OP is coming from the standpoint that, if she has been given any credit is is therefore misappropriated or misapplied. You might want to address that as well.

    – GalacticCowboy
    4 hours ago















21














The old title asked "Did researcher Katie Bouman only contribute 0.26% of code that created Black Hole image," and the existing answers do a good job explaining why it isn't true and why lines of code aren't a useful metric. The new title, however, asks "Was credit for the black hole image misappropriated?" and the correct answer should appear rather differently.



On the one hand, we know that Bouman deserves a large share of credit.



From https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/10/us/katie-bouman-mit-black-hole-algorithm-sci-trnd/index.html




"(Bouman) was a major part of one of the imaging subteams," said Vincent Fish, a research scientist at MIT's Haystack Observatory.



For the past few years, Bouman directed the verification of images and selection of imaging parameters.



"We developed ways to generate synthetic data and used different algorithms and tested blindly to see if we can recover an image," she told CNN.
"We didn't want to just develop one algorithm. We wanted to develop many different algorithms that all have different assumptions built into them. If all of them recover the same general structure, then that builds your confidence."



That's where Bouman's algorithm -- along with several others -- came in. Using imaging algorithms like Bouman's, researchers created three scripted code pipelines to piece together the picture.




However, Bouman does not deserve all of the credit. So, for the claim to be true, we would need to see that journalists claimed that she deserves all of the credit.



CNN's headline is sufficiently reserved and the article goes far in explaining Bouman's work.




That image of a black hole you saw everywhere? Thank this grad student for making it possible




However, BBC News was rather more sensational.




Katie Bouman: The woman behind the first black hole image




Furthermore, it claims:




The black hole image, captured by the Event Horizon Telescope (EHT) - a network of eight linked telescopes - was rendered by Dr Bouman's algorithm.




However, as CNN explained above, multiple algorithms were used.



Another source, phys.org went with the factually inaccurate claim in its headline:




Scientist superstar Katie Bouman designed algorithm for black hole image




(it is arguable what is being claimed due to a missing article, although in such a headline "the" might be presumed)



So, I can see evidence for the claim that credit was misappropriated by some publications. Off topic: I find it rather unfortunate, too, since clickbait headlines and claims drive societal schisms.






share|improve this answer

























  • OP has since added the text of a tweet that they claim supports a view that Dr. Bouman deserves zero credit. So it seems like OP is coming from the standpoint that, if she has been given any credit is is therefore misappropriated or misapplied. You might want to address that as well.

    – GalacticCowboy
    4 hours ago













21












21








21







The old title asked "Did researcher Katie Bouman only contribute 0.26% of code that created Black Hole image," and the existing answers do a good job explaining why it isn't true and why lines of code aren't a useful metric. The new title, however, asks "Was credit for the black hole image misappropriated?" and the correct answer should appear rather differently.



On the one hand, we know that Bouman deserves a large share of credit.



From https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/10/us/katie-bouman-mit-black-hole-algorithm-sci-trnd/index.html




"(Bouman) was a major part of one of the imaging subteams," said Vincent Fish, a research scientist at MIT's Haystack Observatory.



For the past few years, Bouman directed the verification of images and selection of imaging parameters.



"We developed ways to generate synthetic data and used different algorithms and tested blindly to see if we can recover an image," she told CNN.
"We didn't want to just develop one algorithm. We wanted to develop many different algorithms that all have different assumptions built into them. If all of them recover the same general structure, then that builds your confidence."



That's where Bouman's algorithm -- along with several others -- came in. Using imaging algorithms like Bouman's, researchers created three scripted code pipelines to piece together the picture.




However, Bouman does not deserve all of the credit. So, for the claim to be true, we would need to see that journalists claimed that she deserves all of the credit.



CNN's headline is sufficiently reserved and the article goes far in explaining Bouman's work.




That image of a black hole you saw everywhere? Thank this grad student for making it possible




However, BBC News was rather more sensational.




Katie Bouman: The woman behind the first black hole image




Furthermore, it claims:




The black hole image, captured by the Event Horizon Telescope (EHT) - a network of eight linked telescopes - was rendered by Dr Bouman's algorithm.




However, as CNN explained above, multiple algorithms were used.



Another source, phys.org went with the factually inaccurate claim in its headline:




Scientist superstar Katie Bouman designed algorithm for black hole image




(it is arguable what is being claimed due to a missing article, although in such a headline "the" might be presumed)



So, I can see evidence for the claim that credit was misappropriated by some publications. Off topic: I find it rather unfortunate, too, since clickbait headlines and claims drive societal schisms.






share|improve this answer















The old title asked "Did researcher Katie Bouman only contribute 0.26% of code that created Black Hole image," and the existing answers do a good job explaining why it isn't true and why lines of code aren't a useful metric. The new title, however, asks "Was credit for the black hole image misappropriated?" and the correct answer should appear rather differently.



On the one hand, we know that Bouman deserves a large share of credit.



From https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/10/us/katie-bouman-mit-black-hole-algorithm-sci-trnd/index.html




"(Bouman) was a major part of one of the imaging subteams," said Vincent Fish, a research scientist at MIT's Haystack Observatory.



For the past few years, Bouman directed the verification of images and selection of imaging parameters.



"We developed ways to generate synthetic data and used different algorithms and tested blindly to see if we can recover an image," she told CNN.
"We didn't want to just develop one algorithm. We wanted to develop many different algorithms that all have different assumptions built into them. If all of them recover the same general structure, then that builds your confidence."



That's where Bouman's algorithm -- along with several others -- came in. Using imaging algorithms like Bouman's, researchers created three scripted code pipelines to piece together the picture.




However, Bouman does not deserve all of the credit. So, for the claim to be true, we would need to see that journalists claimed that she deserves all of the credit.



CNN's headline is sufficiently reserved and the article goes far in explaining Bouman's work.




That image of a black hole you saw everywhere? Thank this grad student for making it possible




However, BBC News was rather more sensational.




Katie Bouman: The woman behind the first black hole image




Furthermore, it claims:




The black hole image, captured by the Event Horizon Telescope (EHT) - a network of eight linked telescopes - was rendered by Dr Bouman's algorithm.




However, as CNN explained above, multiple algorithms were used.



Another source, phys.org went with the factually inaccurate claim in its headline:




Scientist superstar Katie Bouman designed algorithm for black hole image




(it is arguable what is being claimed due to a missing article, although in such a headline "the" might be presumed)



So, I can see evidence for the claim that credit was misappropriated by some publications. Off topic: I find it rather unfortunate, too, since clickbait headlines and claims drive societal schisms.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 23 hours ago

























answered 23 hours ago









Aleksandr DubinskyAleksandr Dubinsky

35916




35916












  • OP has since added the text of a tweet that they claim supports a view that Dr. Bouman deserves zero credit. So it seems like OP is coming from the standpoint that, if she has been given any credit is is therefore misappropriated or misapplied. You might want to address that as well.

    – GalacticCowboy
    4 hours ago

















  • OP has since added the text of a tweet that they claim supports a view that Dr. Bouman deserves zero credit. So it seems like OP is coming from the standpoint that, if she has been given any credit is is therefore misappropriated or misapplied. You might want to address that as well.

    – GalacticCowboy
    4 hours ago
















OP has since added the text of a tweet that they claim supports a view that Dr. Bouman deserves zero credit. So it seems like OP is coming from the standpoint that, if she has been given any credit is is therefore misappropriated or misapplied. You might want to address that as well.

– GalacticCowboy
4 hours ago





OP has since added the text of a tweet that they claim supports a view that Dr. Bouman deserves zero credit. So it seems like OP is coming from the standpoint that, if she has been given any credit is is therefore misappropriated or misapplied. You might want to address that as well.

– GalacticCowboy
4 hours ago





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Identify plant with long narrow paired leaves and reddish stems Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern) Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?What is this plant with long sharp leaves? Is it a weed?What is this 3ft high, stalky plant, with mid sized narrow leaves?What is this young shrub with opposite ovate, crenate leaves and reddish stems?What is this plant with large broad serrated leaves?Identify this upright branching weed with long leaves and reddish stemsPlease help me identify this bulbous plant with long, broad leaves and white flowersWhat is this small annual with narrow gray/green leaves and rust colored daisy-type flowers?What is this chilli plant?Does anyone know what type of chilli plant this is?Help identify this plant