Fourth person (in Slavey language)What languages are the most similar to English?Grammar framework features that are not supported cross-linguisticallyBefore being borrowed by Europeans, was “hurricane” ever pronounced with an initial “f”?Why did English change so rapidly between the late 1600s and the early 1700s?Distinguishing between a symbol-based language and a frequency-based language?Does anyone know if there are plans for a 'successor' to Huddleston and Pullum (CamGEL or CGEL)?Explaining Grammatical “Mood” for the LaymenWhy Creole languages aren't the defaultHow to construct a grammar given a text and a dictionaryCan Native Americans of different linguistic background still communicate using sign language?

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Fourth person (in Slavey language)


What languages are the most similar to English?Grammar framework features that are not supported cross-linguisticallyBefore being borrowed by Europeans, was “hurricane” ever pronounced with an initial “f”?Why did English change so rapidly between the late 1600s and the early 1700s?Distinguishing between a symbol-based language and a frequency-based language?Does anyone know if there are plans for a 'successor' to Huddleston and Pullum (CamGEL or CGEL)?Explaining Grammatical “Mood” for the LaymenWhy Creole languages aren't the defaultHow to construct a grammar given a text and a dictionaryCan Native Americans of different linguistic background still communicate using sign language?













21















I was reading a Wikipedia article about the Slavey (Slave) language in Canada, and it says that Slavey has first, second, third and fourth person. I've never heard about a language having a fourth person, so I was just wondering if someone here knows when is this used and how it works? Or, since it isn't very likely you're familiar with this particular language, just in general, what does a fourth person in a language denote?










share|improve this question

















  • 2





    Yes. Other languages with this feature include many of the indigenous languages of Canada. Even completely unrelated languages, Salish, Algonquian, Inuit. I have no idea why this feature is so strongly areal.

    – Wilson
    Mar 12 at 20:50






  • 2





    Navajo as well.

    – Colin Fine
    Mar 13 at 11:37















21















I was reading a Wikipedia article about the Slavey (Slave) language in Canada, and it says that Slavey has first, second, third and fourth person. I've never heard about a language having a fourth person, so I was just wondering if someone here knows when is this used and how it works? Or, since it isn't very likely you're familiar with this particular language, just in general, what does a fourth person in a language denote?










share|improve this question

















  • 2





    Yes. Other languages with this feature include many of the indigenous languages of Canada. Even completely unrelated languages, Salish, Algonquian, Inuit. I have no idea why this feature is so strongly areal.

    – Wilson
    Mar 12 at 20:50






  • 2





    Navajo as well.

    – Colin Fine
    Mar 13 at 11:37













21












21








21


3






I was reading a Wikipedia article about the Slavey (Slave) language in Canada, and it says that Slavey has first, second, third and fourth person. I've never heard about a language having a fourth person, so I was just wondering if someone here knows when is this used and how it works? Or, since it isn't very likely you're familiar with this particular language, just in general, what does a fourth person in a language denote?










share|improve this question














I was reading a Wikipedia article about the Slavey (Slave) language in Canada, and it says that Slavey has first, second, third and fourth person. I've never heard about a language having a fourth person, so I was just wondering if someone here knows when is this used and how it works? Or, since it isn't very likely you're familiar with this particular language, just in general, what does a fourth person in a language denote?







grammar linguistic-typology american-languages






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked Mar 12 at 16:44









lmclmc

386213




386213







  • 2





    Yes. Other languages with this feature include many of the indigenous languages of Canada. Even completely unrelated languages, Salish, Algonquian, Inuit. I have no idea why this feature is so strongly areal.

    – Wilson
    Mar 12 at 20:50






  • 2





    Navajo as well.

    – Colin Fine
    Mar 13 at 11:37












  • 2





    Yes. Other languages with this feature include many of the indigenous languages of Canada. Even completely unrelated languages, Salish, Algonquian, Inuit. I have no idea why this feature is so strongly areal.

    – Wilson
    Mar 12 at 20:50






  • 2





    Navajo as well.

    – Colin Fine
    Mar 13 at 11:37







2




2





Yes. Other languages with this feature include many of the indigenous languages of Canada. Even completely unrelated languages, Salish, Algonquian, Inuit. I have no idea why this feature is so strongly areal.

– Wilson
Mar 12 at 20:50





Yes. Other languages with this feature include many of the indigenous languages of Canada. Even completely unrelated languages, Salish, Algonquian, Inuit. I have no idea why this feature is so strongly areal.

– Wilson
Mar 12 at 20:50




2




2





Navajo as well.

– Colin Fine
Mar 13 at 11:37





Navajo as well.

– Colin Fine
Mar 13 at 11:37










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















19














The fourth person is a (rare) synonym for the obviative. In languages with this feature, when there are two third-person referents and one of them is less salient, the less salient one may be marked as obviative and the more salient one as proximative. According to Rice (1989), the fourth-person pronoun go- is used for objects when the subject is third person (sorry, the source doesn't provide morpheme boundaries or a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss, and I'm not familiar with American languages):



(1) nágoneht'u
'S/he is hitting them(human).'


The fourth-person pronoun ye- is used for third-person direct nonhuman objects when the subject is third person, as a fourth-person possessor (Rice doesn't go into much detail about this use), and used for third-person oblique arguments whose subjects are animate and in the third person:



(2) rígodéhtá
'S/he is counting them(human).'
(The e is nasalised - no idea how to type the Americanist symbol, sorry)
(3) yeyíe káidhah
4.guts
(Again, the i is nasalised, and the gloss for the second word is also missing in the main text.)
(4) yegts'é rádí
4.to 3.gives.help
'S/he helps him/her.'


References:
Rice, K. (1989). A grammar of Slave. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    For a typical Algonkian obviative system, see Obviation, Inversion, and Topic Rank in Ojibwa, by Richard Rhodes.

    – jlawler
    Mar 12 at 22:28


















14














As a layman in linguistics I found this explanation pretty illuminating:




In English, when we have a non-SAP (speech act participants) involved in the discourse, there is the potential for ambiguity. For example, consider:



“John was in a tizzy last night and got into a fight with Bill. He hit him so hard that he broke his jaw.”



Here, it isn’t clear that who broke whose jaw.*



In languages with what’s called an “obviative” system, however, there is a means of marking two different 3rd persons such that the doer and the doee of an action are clear, even when there are only pronouns in the phrase. These two types are often called 3rd person (or “proximate”) and 4th person (or “obviate”). The details of these systems vary a bit from language to language, but in the broadest strokes, the proximate 3rd person is the topic of the discourse, while the obviative 4th person is used for everything else.







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    2 Answers
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    2 Answers
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    active

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    19














    The fourth person is a (rare) synonym for the obviative. In languages with this feature, when there are two third-person referents and one of them is less salient, the less salient one may be marked as obviative and the more salient one as proximative. According to Rice (1989), the fourth-person pronoun go- is used for objects when the subject is third person (sorry, the source doesn't provide morpheme boundaries or a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss, and I'm not familiar with American languages):



    (1) nágoneht'u
    'S/he is hitting them(human).'


    The fourth-person pronoun ye- is used for third-person direct nonhuman objects when the subject is third person, as a fourth-person possessor (Rice doesn't go into much detail about this use), and used for third-person oblique arguments whose subjects are animate and in the third person:



    (2) rígodéhtá
    'S/he is counting them(human).'
    (The e is nasalised - no idea how to type the Americanist symbol, sorry)
    (3) yeyíe káidhah
    4.guts
    (Again, the i is nasalised, and the gloss for the second word is also missing in the main text.)
    (4) yegts'é rádí
    4.to 3.gives.help
    'S/he helps him/her.'


    References:
    Rice, K. (1989). A grammar of Slave. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.






    share|improve this answer




















    • 1





      For a typical Algonkian obviative system, see Obviation, Inversion, and Topic Rank in Ojibwa, by Richard Rhodes.

      – jlawler
      Mar 12 at 22:28















    19














    The fourth person is a (rare) synonym for the obviative. In languages with this feature, when there are two third-person referents and one of them is less salient, the less salient one may be marked as obviative and the more salient one as proximative. According to Rice (1989), the fourth-person pronoun go- is used for objects when the subject is third person (sorry, the source doesn't provide morpheme boundaries or a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss, and I'm not familiar with American languages):



    (1) nágoneht'u
    'S/he is hitting them(human).'


    The fourth-person pronoun ye- is used for third-person direct nonhuman objects when the subject is third person, as a fourth-person possessor (Rice doesn't go into much detail about this use), and used for third-person oblique arguments whose subjects are animate and in the third person:



    (2) rígodéhtá
    'S/he is counting them(human).'
    (The e is nasalised - no idea how to type the Americanist symbol, sorry)
    (3) yeyíe káidhah
    4.guts
    (Again, the i is nasalised, and the gloss for the second word is also missing in the main text.)
    (4) yegts'é rádí
    4.to 3.gives.help
    'S/he helps him/her.'


    References:
    Rice, K. (1989). A grammar of Slave. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.






    share|improve this answer




















    • 1





      For a typical Algonkian obviative system, see Obviation, Inversion, and Topic Rank in Ojibwa, by Richard Rhodes.

      – jlawler
      Mar 12 at 22:28













    19












    19








    19







    The fourth person is a (rare) synonym for the obviative. In languages with this feature, when there are two third-person referents and one of them is less salient, the less salient one may be marked as obviative and the more salient one as proximative. According to Rice (1989), the fourth-person pronoun go- is used for objects when the subject is third person (sorry, the source doesn't provide morpheme boundaries or a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss, and I'm not familiar with American languages):



    (1) nágoneht'u
    'S/he is hitting them(human).'


    The fourth-person pronoun ye- is used for third-person direct nonhuman objects when the subject is third person, as a fourth-person possessor (Rice doesn't go into much detail about this use), and used for third-person oblique arguments whose subjects are animate and in the third person:



    (2) rígodéhtá
    'S/he is counting them(human).'
    (The e is nasalised - no idea how to type the Americanist symbol, sorry)
    (3) yeyíe káidhah
    4.guts
    (Again, the i is nasalised, and the gloss for the second word is also missing in the main text.)
    (4) yegts'é rádí
    4.to 3.gives.help
    'S/he helps him/her.'


    References:
    Rice, K. (1989). A grammar of Slave. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.






    share|improve this answer















    The fourth person is a (rare) synonym for the obviative. In languages with this feature, when there are two third-person referents and one of them is less salient, the less salient one may be marked as obviative and the more salient one as proximative. According to Rice (1989), the fourth-person pronoun go- is used for objects when the subject is third person (sorry, the source doesn't provide morpheme boundaries or a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss, and I'm not familiar with American languages):



    (1) nágoneht'u
    'S/he is hitting them(human).'


    The fourth-person pronoun ye- is used for third-person direct nonhuman objects when the subject is third person, as a fourth-person possessor (Rice doesn't go into much detail about this use), and used for third-person oblique arguments whose subjects are animate and in the third person:



    (2) rígodéhtá
    'S/he is counting them(human).'
    (The e is nasalised - no idea how to type the Americanist symbol, sorry)
    (3) yeyíe káidhah
    4.guts
    (Again, the i is nasalised, and the gloss for the second word is also missing in the main text.)
    (4) yegts'é rádí
    4.to 3.gives.help
    'S/he helps him/her.'


    References:
    Rice, K. (1989). A grammar of Slave. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited Mar 12 at 18:19

























    answered Mar 12 at 17:13









    WavesWashSandsWavesWashSands

    2,3861029




    2,3861029







    • 1





      For a typical Algonkian obviative system, see Obviation, Inversion, and Topic Rank in Ojibwa, by Richard Rhodes.

      – jlawler
      Mar 12 at 22:28












    • 1





      For a typical Algonkian obviative system, see Obviation, Inversion, and Topic Rank in Ojibwa, by Richard Rhodes.

      – jlawler
      Mar 12 at 22:28







    1




    1





    For a typical Algonkian obviative system, see Obviation, Inversion, and Topic Rank in Ojibwa, by Richard Rhodes.

    – jlawler
    Mar 12 at 22:28





    For a typical Algonkian obviative system, see Obviation, Inversion, and Topic Rank in Ojibwa, by Richard Rhodes.

    – jlawler
    Mar 12 at 22:28











    14














    As a layman in linguistics I found this explanation pretty illuminating:




    In English, when we have a non-SAP (speech act participants) involved in the discourse, there is the potential for ambiguity. For example, consider:



    “John was in a tizzy last night and got into a fight with Bill. He hit him so hard that he broke his jaw.”



    Here, it isn’t clear that who broke whose jaw.*



    In languages with what’s called an “obviative” system, however, there is a means of marking two different 3rd persons such that the doer and the doee of an action are clear, even when there are only pronouns in the phrase. These two types are often called 3rd person (or “proximate”) and 4th person (or “obviate”). The details of these systems vary a bit from language to language, but in the broadest strokes, the proximate 3rd person is the topic of the discourse, while the obviative 4th person is used for everything else.







    share|improve this answer



























      14














      As a layman in linguistics I found this explanation pretty illuminating:




      In English, when we have a non-SAP (speech act participants) involved in the discourse, there is the potential for ambiguity. For example, consider:



      “John was in a tizzy last night and got into a fight with Bill. He hit him so hard that he broke his jaw.”



      Here, it isn’t clear that who broke whose jaw.*



      In languages with what’s called an “obviative” system, however, there is a means of marking two different 3rd persons such that the doer and the doee of an action are clear, even when there are only pronouns in the phrase. These two types are often called 3rd person (or “proximate”) and 4th person (or “obviate”). The details of these systems vary a bit from language to language, but in the broadest strokes, the proximate 3rd person is the topic of the discourse, while the obviative 4th person is used for everything else.







      share|improve this answer

























        14












        14








        14







        As a layman in linguistics I found this explanation pretty illuminating:




        In English, when we have a non-SAP (speech act participants) involved in the discourse, there is the potential for ambiguity. For example, consider:



        “John was in a tizzy last night and got into a fight with Bill. He hit him so hard that he broke his jaw.”



        Here, it isn’t clear that who broke whose jaw.*



        In languages with what’s called an “obviative” system, however, there is a means of marking two different 3rd persons such that the doer and the doee of an action are clear, even when there are only pronouns in the phrase. These two types are often called 3rd person (or “proximate”) and 4th person (or “obviate”). The details of these systems vary a bit from language to language, but in the broadest strokes, the proximate 3rd person is the topic of the discourse, while the obviative 4th person is used for everything else.







        share|improve this answer













        As a layman in linguistics I found this explanation pretty illuminating:




        In English, when we have a non-SAP (speech act participants) involved in the discourse, there is the potential for ambiguity. For example, consider:



        “John was in a tizzy last night and got into a fight with Bill. He hit him so hard that he broke his jaw.”



        Here, it isn’t clear that who broke whose jaw.*



        In languages with what’s called an “obviative” system, however, there is a means of marking two different 3rd persons such that the doer and the doee of an action are clear, even when there are only pronouns in the phrase. These two types are often called 3rd person (or “proximate”) and 4th person (or “obviate”). The details of these systems vary a bit from language to language, but in the broadest strokes, the proximate 3rd person is the topic of the discourse, while the obviative 4th person is used for everything else.








        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered Mar 13 at 3:07









        Andrew SavinykhAndrew Savinykh

        24616




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